The upper-cert "gap"

[Nancy Hummel]

The other factor in this equation is that at many ski schools, PSIA certification and current membership is the criteria for pay standards and priority so while being a member is technically optional, not being a member negatively affects pay and work options.

 

[markojp]

FWIW, I've seen first hand people holding on to inefficient/ineffective movements, severe gear/alignment issues, and complain vociferously about not passing exams or 'getting better'. There are certainly many exceptions, but learning how to learn is one of the better take aways from any productive education. Who's responsible for 'productive' ? Both the coaches and coach'ees. 50/50.

 

[markojp]

I did not mean my post as a PSIA sucks post. However, I think are things that PSIA could do to help ease the financial burden for instructors.

I didn't think you were on that bandwagon at all.

 

[at_nyc]

I have brought this up with board members on many occasions since things started getting out of whack a number of years ago. The answer I always get is that PSIA is strictly an educational body. My response is that if they want to survive it is time to shift paradigms & become an advocate between their members & SAM.

That's so f*ing funny!

Not just PSIA then. Even many universities are singing that very same song. "Purely educational institution"! Tens of thousands of dollars loan later, are the graduates of Yale have better earning potential than the graduate of YouKnowWhich college? Fortunately for parents and prospective students, they know the score.

So it's no surprise the like of PTJ are opting out of PSIA and just do the zero cost in house training. Others like him had concluded that's smarter investment of their time and money.

EDIT: I will add that over the long haul PSIA has been a good value for me. The discounts I received for owning 5 new Subaru's over the decades alone has more than made up for my dues & certifications

Except there're less expensive ways to get the Subie discount. Just about every outdoor organization (canoe, climbing...) membership qualify for that same discount.

 

[Jilly]

The CSIA realized a few years ago that they were have problems moving instructors up the cert ladder. Part was they allowed level 1 instructors full membership years ago. So that means, unless it's personal, there is no reason to go for a L2. When I took my L1 you were an associate instructor, no pro deals and in some places you had to pay for your pass even though you were working. So there was an incentive to move up the ladder. Now that is gone. So the smaller feeder hills are full of L1 instructors.

Now the problem is there are 1000's of L1 instructors and they are not moving up. So the CSIA is trying to give easier access to courses etc. Some are online, some are 2 - 3 day on snow clinics. As of yet I haven't attended any of the new L3 modules. They say I have my training, just need the exams. I am no where ready for either teaching or skiing exam.

 

[Tricia]

Well, the cost of earning a Level III is not just the cost of the exams, travel, etc., but also the opportunity cost of the time to train to pass. Level III, at least in Rocky Mountain, requires a very high level of skiing and versatility, and you aren't going to achieve that level without a significant investment of time to train. Perhaps some could achieve that working full-time and training for no more than an hour a day (less when you consider lift time and the need to report in for work), but there's also the time that's required to study for the movement analysis and teach.

This is my understanding as well. I recall talking to @James when he was taking his L3 and it seemed like he was training a LOT. This is a guy who clearly knows how to ski and knows how to teach.

 

[Tricia]

So it's no surprise the like of PTJ are opting out of PSIA and just do the zero cost in house training. Others like him had concluded that's smarter investment of their time and money.

@TPJ didn't say he was opting out of PSIA entirely. He said he wasn't going to spend one more minute of time clinicing or spend one extra penny than he has to.
There is a big difference between that and opting out.

 

[skimore1]

I was a L2 for years and in clinics examiners always told me I was skiing at L3 when I decided I was ready I, like Markojp found anything educational material I could get my hands on. I skied with L3's and Examiners when ever I could ( we had a few examiners in house) so I clinic-ed with them at least once a week. I stayed with a friend for the lodging so it wasn't too bad financially I was in good physical shape and went in with a good attitude I teach because I love it and have build many awesome relationships through teaching,PSIA, and the ski industry in general when I passed L3 I was ecstatic! and am still proud to wear the pin when and wherever I ski. Its what you make it ,and now that I have over 30 years PSIA has dropped the education requirements but I still like to clinic and keep as current as I can. I never was in it for the money but it has payed big dividends in life long friendships!

 

[Mike King]

The other factor in this equation is that at many ski schools, PSIA certification and current membership is the criteria for pay standards and priority so while being a member is technically optional, not being a member negatively affects pay and work options.

Sure, Nancy, but it is also true that some of those schools give a pretty significant pay increase for moving up the cert ladder. I recall my Level I examine when the Aspenites learned the bump was $5/hour which meant the cert easily paid for itself (very quickly for the full-timers and within a season for the par-timers).

All that being said, it IS in PSIA/CSIA’s interest to create demand for PROFESSIONAL ski instructors. That means educating the public on the benefit of a certified instructor. That also means that the certification adds value to the client. And it means advocating with management that certified pros should be paid a wage commensurate with the value they add.

 

[Tricia]

From my personal teaching experience:
I taught for one year. I was ready to go for my L1 and would have (by all accounts) easily passed it. During the time that I would have been taking the in house certification I had a family crisis that I had to tend to (My nephews fiancé died from a brain tumor) So I didn't take the test, because I was with my family.
When I got back, I was told that I could make it up at the PSIA convention but I'd have to pay a fee to do so. It was a total of 600.00 by the time I paid for the exam and lift tickets. I honestly didn't have the 600.00 at the time, having just spent the $$ on unplanned travel to be with family.
Needless to say, I was discouraged. At the time I was also doing stuff with Masterfit and knew that it was something I wanted to get more involved with, so I put my $$ and efforts there.

 

[Monique]

Do any ski schools subsidize exams?

 

[Tricia]

Do any ski schools subsidize exams?

The way they do it is by providing clinics for instructors who are not otherwise teaching. Some ski schools allow the instructor who is in the clinic to remain on the clock.
They also provide "In House" exams, but I don't think that applies to L3 or above, I could be wrong.

I was fortunate in that, the ski school I worked for provided free clinics while I was on the clock and the In House exam was covered.

The funny thing was, it was a bad snow year so lessons weren't plentiful, which meant I got a lot of clinic time, and I also got to shadow senior instructors in lessons a lot. That is when I found out I was better at the gear thing than the teaching thing. While shadowing senior instructors I made boot adjustments for students, recommended different pole lengths for students, recommended different skis based on what they could/couldn't do in the class.
One instructor told me THAT is what we're missing. We need a person to sort out some of the things about gear that instructors often miss.

Example: The student can't make a turn because she's in boots 3 sizes too big. Or, the student can't get out of the back seat because she's pole planting with poles that are 4 inches too long. Or she can't make a turn because she's 95 lbs and she's skiing on her husband's old SL skis.

 

[markojp]

That's so f*ing funny!

Not just PSIA then. Even many universities are singing that very same song. "Purely educational institution"! Tens of thousands of dollars loan later, are the graduates of Yale have better earning potential than the graduate of YouKnowWhich college? Fortunately for parents and prospective students, they know the score.

So it's no surprise the like of PTJ are opting out of PSIA and just do the zero cost in house training. Others like him had concluded that's smarter investment of their time and money.


Except there're less expensive ways to get the Subie discount. Just about every outdoor organization (canoe, climbing...) membership qualify for that same discount.

I'm pretty sure TPJ maintains his L2 cert and has some telemark certification as well. FWIW, we all do in house 'free' training. Taking the necessary 1 credit to maintain 'current' status is NOT expensive, and you'll be out a day. In the past, we've organized our own via the divisional office and met the clinician on the hill, spent the day ripping around together, going over some interesting stuff, having fun, and drinking beer afterward. If that's hard, it's tough to suggest any reason to bother teaching. Personally, I doubt very much I'd bother if I lived in a large eastern city and had to travel two hands worth of hour each way every weekend just to get to the hill.

 

[markojp]

Do any ski schools subsidize exams?

Yes. We're reimbursed at the beginning of the following season for a successful exam.

 

[at_nyc]

Do any ski schools subsidize exams?

The hill I used to teach on reimbursed the exam cost, provided 1) you pass; 2) you teach x minimum hours the next season.

(basically, you pass the exam, paying out of pocket. Next season, once you teach x number of hours, you get a check equals the cost back -- at least that's what I was told)

 

[Jilly]

Do any ski schools subsidize exams?

Traveling club I taught for paid the course and yearly fees. But we didn't get any pay otherwise. I would think they any school would want to be sure you remain with them. So hours the next year whatever to get their money back.

The one difference I see is that I don't know of any CSIA affiliate that will allow a non certified instructor to take out a group. Insurance is the key. All CSIA members get insurance with their yearly dues.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Sure, Nancy, but it is also true that some of those schools give a pretty significant pay increase for moving up the cert ladder. I recall my Level I examine when the Aspenites learned the bump was $5/hour which meant the cert easily paid for itself (very quickly for the full-timers and within a season for the par-timers).

All that being said, it IS in PSIA/CSIA’s interest to create demand for PROFESSIONAL ski instructors. That means educating the public on the benefit of a certified instructor. That also means that the certification adds value to the client. And it means advocating with management that certified pros should be paid a wage commensurate with the value they add.

At Breck, I received either a .50 or 1.00 raise for getting my Level 1. At Aspen, I did not get an increase for my Level 2 as I don't have 2000.00 total teaching hours.
I don't disagree with you. All I am saying is that it is not financially worth it for some people.

 

[T-Square]

...
...
During the years I did Epic Ski Academy, I skied for 4 days with Bob Barnes (RM examiner). I submitted the information to PSIA for credit and had to pay an administrative cost for PSIA to input the information. The administrative cost was the same cost as going to a PSIA clinic. I do not think this is appropriate. I am not opposed to a minimal admin cost but it should not be the same as attending an actual clinic.

I'm in Eastern Division and did the same thing for two EpicSki Academies, they did not charge me, just gave me the credits.

 

[BS Slarver]

I think @4ster said it a few pages back that you have to love teaching as well as have enough other sources of work and income in the off season to supliment it ... that or or be a wealthy trustifarian
** if I'm misreading you 4ster - sorry, that's what I got from it anyway ?

Skiing and diving are our houses passions and in order to get enough of both of those I need to work my ass off when I'm not doing one of them.

You should try eating on a dive masters salary

Said it earlier.... seems like the further up the ladder the less money you make.

 

[4ster]

Do any ski schools subsidize exams?

During my years as a SS director I did the same as Marko's school does. I would reimburse the certified instructor on their return the following season. reimbursement was only for the exam cost, not membership, PSIA prerequisite clinics or associated costs. The raise for a successful candidate was immediate, I would even retro-act their increase to the day they got it if by chance it was in the middle of a pay period. I found it in my best interest to pay each employee the maximum I possibly could, when it came to creating future labor budgets. Anything I could do to slow the shift in balance but I could see it coming even back in the 90's. It is a game played with the bean counters, I am sure it is similar in any business. By that time I was able to add the cost of my membership & other costs etc. into my budget plan along with those of my salaried supervisors.

During my years as trainer at Snowbasin, we paid instructors at their non-teaching rate for their first 12 clinic hours. Clinic time after 12hrs. was not paid but always available to anyone who was not needed to teach or wanted to participate during their off time. The tough thing there was finding clinic time for the full-time instructors. For LI, we usually had enough candidates to set up an in house assessment once or twice a season to keep travel costs down for those individuals.