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skimore1

Booting up
Instructor
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
45
Location
Caledonia,Mi.
I'm pretty sure TPJ maintains his L2 cert and has some telemark certification as well. FWIW, we all do in house 'free' training. Taking the necessary 1 credit to maintain 'current' status is NOT expensive, and you'll be out a day. In the past, we've organized our own via the divisional office and met the clinician on the hill, spent the day ripping around together, going over some interesting stuff, having fun, and drinking beer afterward. If that's hard, it's tough to suggest any reason to bother teaching. Personally, I doubt very much I'd bother if I lived in a large eastern city and had to travel two hands worth of hour each way every weekend just to get to the hill.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,219
Location
Sierra & Wasatch
I think @4ster said it a few pages back that you have to love teaching as well as have enough other sources of work and income in the off season to supliment it ... that or or be a wealthy trustifarian ogsmile
** if I'm misreading you 4ster - sorry, that's what I got from it anyway ?
Pretty close, at least that's the gist of it. I think my point is that there was a time when a full time instructor could actually make enough to cover their living expenses, at least for the winter. My employer did a lot to make this happen because they did not want a bunch of burn outs coming to work after they had been tending bar all night & providing a less than stellar experience to the guest.
Nowadays, unless you have a pretty established clientele in one of the few stand out destination areas, it would be almost impossible to survive on teaching alone. Subsequently, you have less full time instructors & a school needs to hire a larger part time staff to handle the same volume. More staff means less consistency, less consistency usually means a weaker product. If the product is weak, it loses its market. A sad state of affairs :( .l
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
And not only in the ski industry.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
I forgot to mention the raise. Yes, it's immediate, and substantial for each level.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Pretty close, at least that's the gist of it. I think my point is that there was a time when a full time instructor could actually make enough to cover their living expenses, at least for the winter. My employer did a lot to make this happen because they did not want a bunch of burn outs coming to work after they had been tending bar all night & providing a less than stellar experience to the guest.
Nowadays, unless you have a pretty established clientele in one of the few stand out destination areas, it would be almost impossible to survive on teaching alone. Subsequently, you have less full time instructors & a school needs to hire a larger part time staff to handle the same volume. More staff means less consistency, less consistency usually means a weaker product. If the product is weak, it loses its market. A sad state of affairs :( .l

And the fact that there are people teaching, both full time and part time, for personal fulfillment and without need of the paycheck ... doesn't help matters. (She says, with the plan of one day teaching part time for personal reasons.)
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,219
Location
Sierra & Wasatch
And the fact that there are people teaching, both full time and part time, for personal fulfillment and without need of the paycheck ... doesn't help matters. (She says, with the plan of one day teaching part time for personal reasons.)

I hope no one takes my earlier post regarding "retired hobbyists" the wrong way. From what I know of your posts & the fact that you have spent some time in different lesson programs you are probably a great candidate to be an instructor. For someone like @Mike King , it was the next logical step.
Just don't let "the man" take advantage of you. ogwink

I have worked with many second career instructors whose first career was in education, coaching, mentoring or a similar field. As long as they can adapt their basic movements to modern technique & appropriately demonstrate those movements, they can be some of the best.
 

TPJ

Like PBJ, but not as ubiquitous!
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
110
Location
Jackson, WY
I didn't mean to make a "I hate PSIA" post. For the record, I don't hate PSIA and have to acknowledge that my involvement has made me a better skier and instructor. I am pissed that they charged me a penalty for not taking enough clinics from them AND expect me to make up the clinics or lose my certifications. I think I should either pay the penalty OR make up the clinics, but not both. It is especially annoying when I have done a lot more training than the average instructor and my trainer is also a PSIA DECL. My issues are with the organization not with the Ed Staff. While there are some DECL trainers that I have had better experiences with than others, none of the DECLs got where they are by being crappy skiers or not understanding the mechanics of skiing. As far as I can tell all of them lose money by being involved in leading PSIA events vs staying home and teaching private lessons.

I do think there are inconsistencies in the assessment process depending on which division you are in and who you get as an evaluator. I don't know how to improve the process and inconsistencies are inherent in a process that is governed by human beings. My approach to it has been to work on getting better and not to blame PSIA if I don't pass an assessment. Politics do matter in an organization run by people, it's inevitable. However personalities and politics can only play a role in borderline cases and it's weak sauce to blame others if you can't pass an assessment. PSIA is giving out the certifications and they get to set the standards. You either meet their standard and show them what they want to see or you don't pass. Even if you might happen to disagree with some of the criteria, a talented and versatile skier should be able to show the movements when asked.

I have been a PSIA member for quite a few years now and as far as I can tell there is no such thing as a "PSIA approved" progression. In fact as far as I can tell PSIA with its "student centered approach" is far more open to instructor improvisation than other systems I've heard about. I would guess that it is individual SS that promote specific progressions more than PSIA. My SS treats me very well. I will get paid more and probably get somewhat better lessons if I complete my L3, but I do pretty much only teach levels 7-9. A lot of people think I am a L3. I never misrepresent my certifications, I just let my skiing do the talking for me and people draw their own conclusions.. My current cert levels are Alpine 2, Telemark 2, CS-2, Snowboard 1, and Freestyle 1. I haven't stepped up to the L3 test in about 4-5 years. The next time I take it I will pass it because I will be ready to pass it on my worst day under bad conditions with a hangover and an evaluator that doesn't like me. I can't control the other factors, but I can control what I do.

I would like to be paid more and I wish I could make even 1/3 the margin on employees who worked for me that the SS makes on me, but I do make a living teaching skiing. I never even see my paychecks, they get directly deposited into my personal checking account. My mortgage gets automatically deducted from that account. Skiing pays my mortgage for the entire year. I haven't directly taken a paycheck from my summer business for many years. I get great pro-deals and some free gear each season. It's a better job and pays more than most in this ski town.

I'm still not giving PSIA one extra dollar or one extra minute of my time than I have to going forward.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
From what I know of your posts & the fact that you have spent some time in different lesson programs you are probably a great candidate to be an instructor.

Well, thank you! But the point remains that there are many part time instructors, potentially including me, for whom the money is beside the point, and who can therefore provide cheap labor that undermines the instructors who do want to make a living at it. Ideally, this would shake out because the dedicated instructors would be able to gain higher certs and be rewarded for it - but it's not clear to me that it works quite this way, because ski schools are happy to have very inexperienced instructors teach newbie lessons. Which is understandable, but I am sure that an experienced instructor can make a huge difference for someone just starting.

I'm not saying it's *wrong* to work as a ski instructor when you don't rely on the money, but it does change the dynamics for those who do want to make a living.

I haven't stepped up to the L3 test in about 4-5 years. The next time I take it I will pass it because I will be ready to pass it on my worst day under bad conditions with a hangover and an evaluator that doesn't like me. I can't control the other factors, but I can control what I do.

I think I shared this story before ... I was taking a lesson with an examiner (instructor I've known a long time) when one of her mentees dropped by to say hi. Mentee was training up for the level 3 exam in the spring. Mentee said they were going to ski Mach 1 (notoriously crappy on spring mornings) after the snow had softened a bit. Examiner told mentee that if they had the urge to wait till the snow softens, they're not ready to take the exam.

On the same day, the examiner commented that a lot of people want to push their exams to the end of the season so that they have the most time to prepare. But they've been preparing in winter conditions, and spring is a totally different beast. It's a good point! I guess you just have to pick your poison.
 

TPJ

Like PBJ, but not as ubiquitous!
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
110
Location
Jackson, WY
On the same day, the examiner commented that a lot of people want to push their exams to the end of the season so that they have the most time to prepare. But they've been preparing in winter conditions, and spring is a totally different beast. It's a good point! I guess you just have to pick your poison.[/QUOTE]

I ski almost everyday and I ski well in all conditions. I would prefer to have good conditions, but will ski what's in front of me and do it as well as the examiner.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
I ski almost everyday and I ski well in all conditions. I would prefer to have good conditions, but will ski what's in front of me and do it as well as the examiner.

Excellent! Me, not so much ;-)
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
12,196
Location
NYC
On the same day, the examiner commented that a lot of people want to push their exams to the end of the season so that they have the most time to prepare. But they've been preparing in winter conditions, and spring is a totally different beast. It's a good point! I guess you just have to pick your poison.

I remember skiing pass a group of instructors doing their L3 cert at Squaw late April 2012. The snow was part mashed potato make with Elmer glue, part fly paper. It was painful watching those guys do the herky jerky down the slope.
 

dean_spirito

Freestyle Ski Coach
Skier
Joined
Nov 10, 2015
Posts
628
Location
Breckenridge, CO
At one time, I definitely aspired to be a full-cert instructor with PSIA. I earned my Level 1 my first year teaching and began training for my Level 2. I quickly realized, however, that the investment in my Level 2 and beyond, simply wasn't worth it financially. I get paid exactly the same now as I would if I had passed my Level 2 or 3. I get paid based on what value I bring to my team's program, not on what certification I hold. Furthermore, because of how far PSIA has fallen behind the curve with regard to freestyle and park specific instruction, my team prefers coaches like myself to obtain certs through USSA and USASA. That said, if time and money were not a consideration, I would certainly work to pass a Level 3 exam just for the pin and certificate.
 

Jilly

Lead Cougar
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,411
Location
Belleville, Ontario,/ Mont Tremblant, Quebec
Gee, I thought the CSIA was behind. We've had park and pipe cert since the early 2000's.

Glad the CSIA only wants my money and not clinic times. I do take them, but only recalls are mandatory and free.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
At one time, I definitely aspired to be a full-cert instructor with PSIA. I earned my Level 1 my first year teaching and began training for my Level 2. I quickly realized, however, that the investment in my Level 2 and beyond, simply wasn't worth it financially. I get paid exactly the same now as I would if I had passed my Level 2 or 3. I get paid based on what value I bring to my team's program, not on what certification I hold. Furthermore, because of how far PSIA has fallen behind the curve with regard to freestyle and park specific instruction, my team prefers coaches like myself to obtain certs through USSA and USASA. That said, if time and money were not a consideration, I would certainly work to pass a Level 3 exam just for the pin and certificate.

Are you guys IFSA associated at all?
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,601
Location
PNW aka SEA
I need to get signed on to that one.
 

mister moose

Instigator
Skier
Joined
May 30, 2017
Posts
656
Location
Killington
I will add that over the long haul PSIA has been a good value for me. The discounts I received for owning 5 new Subaru's over the decades alone has more than made up for my dues & certifications :) ;) .

Not so much. The last 2 Subarus I bought were well under the PSIA or Sierra Club or 2 box tops and a note from your mother discount, just by buying late in the month, shopping hard and understanding that "invoice" isn't really invoice. Discount programs like that are designed to get you to bargain less and accept the price. They are not the best deal you can get if you educate yourself in the marketplace.
 

bud heishman

Skiing performance facilitator
Instructor
Sky Tavern
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
539
Location
Tahoe
PSIA has made it very expensive and time consuming for L3 certification. A host of required clinics, passing children specialist 2 (3 day exam) etc.

I did Level 2 because I wanted to be a better skier and be eligible to teach higher level lessons but I will not recoup the costs of doing it. I chose to do it and am fine with my choice but there are some financial barriers for people without other imcome.

I don't know that PSIA charges or expects too much for certifications, rather it is SAM not making the pursuit of certifications economically justifiable? Sooner or later SAM will come to realize, if you don't water the grass it will die.
 

Uncle Louie

The Original Gathermeister
Skier
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Posts
499
I was doing my best to live the Lifestyle. I got my PSIA L3.......................................... I wanted to see if I could make a career out of it. I worked my butt off and sold private lessons as much as possible, which turned out to be quite a lot. In the end, though, I could never quite make ends meet. I looked around the locker room too many times and saw the guy who had been doing it forever but had no retirement, no benefits and had maxed out the pay scale. I didn't want to be there.

The final straw for me was getting passed up for assigned private lessons because "I was too expensive", despite having one of the highest return rates in my school. I'd love to still be living the dream, but the Industry needs to step up and take care of it's talent. Otherwise, the brain drain will continue.

Anyway, that's my story.

ditto !
 

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