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DavidSkis

Thinking snow
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Sep 14, 2017
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118
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Toronto
For beginners it should be free. Not just one clas like the Discovery, but free. You buy a ticket, rent the boots and you can have lessons all day, every day until your comfortable. No one should have to pay until they understand things like a good skiers stance and how the gear works, and how to pressure the ski. The basics.
My ski club actually does give free lessons. Every member gets a lesson on every day trip. The member just pays for the bus up (around $30CAD or $20USD), and a discounted ticket from the resort (around $55CAD or $40USD). A $150 membership fee subsidizes the costs of the instructors. We are a non-profit, but we have to pay for the instructor tickets, bus, and a small remuneration. Resorts appreciate us because we bring buses of customers, plus they get revenue from the instructors lift tickets.

Resorts, especially the big ones, could easily bake a lesson into each low level class. The more beginner-y the skier, the less time they're on the lifts (the real cost of business). They're only using a fraction of the lift infrastructure, often the slower cheap stuff over a small area of the mountain (magic carpets, rope tows, and fixed grip quads). Good lessons will convert the beginners into lifelong skiers, meaning more repeat business. It's a no-brainer to throw at least a 1.5h lesson into each beginner rental package.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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I was off just a wee bit ..... if you book now on line you get a discount :roflmao:

View attachment 30190

Now if I could go back to 1990 again, I'd just take my 50% cut, teach privates & make $480 a day. Heck I'd start teaching full time again for that & they wouldn't even need to provide lunch.

Seriously though, if a resort took my model & cut the cost to the guest in half & doubled the instructor wage they would attract some serious pros to work there. The lesson buying public would flock there first because of the reduced rate, then they would stay for the high quality of instruction. The on hill experience would be superior because good skiers don't push the snow into piles, leave huge ruts, chop the moguls up, run into each other or traverse haphazardly through the best bowls & chutes.

It is a win, win, win situation!
 

wutangclan

Getting on the lift
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Apr 25, 2017
Posts
121
Matt, are you an L3? If so, I think what you're experiencing is Big Fish in Small Pond syndrome. The situation you describe is certainly true of the local hills in Vancouver. But at the larger destination resorts like Whistler, Sun Peaks, Tremblant, etc. there's a sizeable contingent of L3s and L4s who stick around and are able to eek out a modest living, raise a family, etc. (so long as they have other work to carry them through the summer).
 

jimtransition

Out on the slopes
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Nov 15, 2016
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473
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Niseko/Queenstown
Now if I could go back to 1990 again, I'd just take my 50% cut, teach privates & make $480 a day. Heck I'd start teaching full time again for that & they wouldn't even need to provide lunch.

Seriously though, if a resort took my model & cut the cost to the guest in half & doubled the instructor wage they would attract some serious pros to work there. The lesson buying public would flock there first because of the reduced rate, then they would stay for the high quality of instruction. The on hill experience would be superior because good skiers don't push the snow into piles, leave huge ruts, chop the moguls up, run into each other or traverse haphazardly through the best bowls & chutes.

It is a win, win, win situation!

Not sure that any company would voluntarily cut their margin that much! I would say a better way to do it would be if whoever legislates these things freed up the rules to allow competing ski schools, it works great in Niseko. We pay an increased season ticket price to the lift companies and are then free to run our own businesses, lesson costs are lower due to competition, and the instructors take home the whole lesson fee (if you are independent). Similar model to how it works in France, except without the Eurotest/French bureaucracy.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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I's a no-brainer to throw at least a 1.5h lesson into each beginner rental package.

Most local areas in our region already do this... 'Ski in three', etc... Three days of lift tickets*, rentals, and lessons for a fixed price, usually around $125-$145.

(* access to beginner area lifts/carpets)
 

markojp

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Not sure that any company would voluntarily cut their margin that much! I would say a better way to do it would be if whoever legislates these things freed up the rules to allow competing ski schools, it works great in Niseko. We pay an increased season ticket price to the lift companies and are then free to run our own businesses, lesson costs are lower due to competition, and the instructors take home the whole lesson fee (if you are independent). Similar model to how it works in France, except without the Eurotest/French bureaucracy.

All my teley teaching while in Japan was independent. My goal was always to teach just enough to break even on my season costs including gear, travel, lodging if necessary, passes. It was never a problem meeting that baseline and still had plenty of free ski time.

Given the lack of political/cultural interest pursuing anti-trust legal action and legislation, I don't see things going back into concession school/independent systems in the US, but we've had that online discussion already.
 
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jimtransition

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473
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Niseko/Queenstown
All my teley teaching while in Japan was independent. My goal was always to teach just enough to break even on my season costs including gear, travel, lodging if necessary, passes. It was never a problem meeting that baseline and still had plenty of free ski time.

Given the lack of political/cultural interest pursuing anti-trust legal action and legislation, I don't see things going back into concession school/independent systems in the US, but we've had that online discussion already.

Nice, as instructing is my only job, I am more in the mode of working everyday, in order to be able to sustain the 4-5 months I take off and still pay my mortgage etc, but breaking even and skiing a lot sounds delightful!

Yeah I can't see it happening either :(
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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... I had an amazing day job! Almost as fun as skiing and much more ¥¥¥. ogsmile.

(Are you involved with SAJ at all?)
 

jimtransition

Out on the slopes
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... I had an amazing day job! Almost as fun as skiing and much more ¥¥¥. ogsmile.

(Are you involved with SAJ at all?)

Cool! No I haven't done any SAJ stuff, tbh most of my work these days is more guiding orientated and none of my clients are Japanese, so there isn't any incentive to do it.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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Hey, if you stop in at Toryu, say 'hi' to Takanashi-san for me. Funny thing, in my Japan era, I only taught one lesson to non-Japanese. Times have changed, eh?
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Colorado
Seriously though, if a resort took my model & cut the cost to the guest in half & doubled the instructor wage they would attract some serious pros to work there. The lesson buying public would flock there first because of the reduced rate, then they would stay for the high quality of instruction.

I think you may be *slightly* overestimating the percentage of the skiing public that chooses resorts based on the price of a lesson.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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Provide it, and they will come. If you could do an all day private with a qualified independent contractor for say $200 and a nice tip, wouldn't you?

But of course, this is all water over the monopoly dam.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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I think you may be *slightly* overestimating the percentage of the skiing public that chooses resorts based on the price of a lesson.

And it is also fact that only a small percentage of the skiing public even take lessons, at least in the U.S..
In 1981 I applied & was selected to be part of a kind of exchange orchestrated by the Tyrolean office of tourism. I was part of a group of U.S. instructors spread out in different resorts around the Tyrol to experience their skiing culture then hopefully promote Austrian ski holidays to our American clients. Anytime I had a chance to break away to ski & explore on my own, I did. Every time I was on my own people always asked "Where is your group?" as if I was lost. I came to realize that literally everyone there skied in a group either with an instructor or guide, it was part of the culture.

Sadly, I was not too successful in bringing that culture back home. Perhaps if lessons were more affordable, more people would take them. Those that do, at least in my experience usually come back for more. The same folks usually ski more often & probably enjoy it more.

When skiing began in this country, Ski School's were run by Europeans who brought some of the culture but were also necessary to bring people into the sport & considered a skier service. As ski areas & resorts grew, Ski School along with being a service was also a way to bring in a few extra bucks. During the era of privately owned, community owned & Mom & Pop ski areas this balance between being a service & at least sustaining itself remained pretty constant. Enter the era of Corporate ownership, resort groups & evil empires & the present day :nono:. Snowsports Schools unlike skier services such as Patrol & Terrain Parks are looked at strictly as Profit Centers! Profitability in the short term is best achieved by charging the highest price the market will bear & cutting labor costs to the minimum. Quantity over quality seems to be the modern credo... ...that must be what sells in the boardroom :huh:.
 
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4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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Sierra & Wasatch

Taos? Yes, big on selling the ski week which includes lesson time each day. I don't know what the cost is or their pay scale.

Aspen is also a standout & if I was doing it over as an Instructor I would do all I could to teach there.

Big White in British Columbia also seems to get some things right. These are all successful resorts.
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
Team Gathermeister
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Taos? Yes, big on selling the ski week which includes lesson time each day. I don't know what the cost is or their pay scale.

Like most places, not much. About five years ago, the senior instructor staff were getting less than $70 per unit. The ski week from 10:00 AM to 12:00 Noon and counts as two units. They were very careful not to call it units and not hours. This is one of the reason I always remind everyone in my ski week to tip generously if they had a good time.

The ski week was a European tradition Ernie bought over and never abandoned. One of the quote attributed to Ernie Blake can be found on page 59 in the book T.A.O.S., The Art Of Skiing.

Taos - The Art of Skiing.jpg
Taos001.jpg


I remembered the ski week (lesson only) was about $230 back in 2002. About 15 years back, TSV offered a discounted ski week program for $99 during the slow period that generally occurred in January. From the first week of January to the first week of February. Its purpose was to increase the participation by the locals. The discounted program was so successful that they extended it to cover the rest of the season. Holiday weeks are nominally more expensive (~$50±). Last season a ski week was $185,
I believe it is going up to $220 this season. Still hell of a deal.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Colorado

Yes, Taos. You're a technical person. You know that even if it seems like a lot of people come to Taos for lessons, that does not mean that it represents a large percentage of the visitors. (I don't have the statistics on that, but I have a theory.)
 

graham418

Skiing the powder
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Toronto
Isnt the joke " Whats the difference between a L4 instructor and a large pepperoni pizza?"

"A large pizza can feed a family of 4"
 

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