The upper-cert "gap"

[Tricia]

I don't think the issue is so much the cost of becoming certified as it is the lack of motivation provided by most (not all) ski area management.

 

[4ster]

Catcha 22

 

[markojp]

Hmmmm. Is it safe to name areas associated with the practice? Pretty dispicable. I'm sure Nick Herrin would be interested in knowing more about this if it's indeed more than anecdotal.

 

[Tricia]

Catcha 22

What is the motivation for a ski resort to motivate instructors to continue to pursue higher level of pay structure when ski school can tell the customer, "Why yes, I can get you one of our highest qualified instructors"
The average customer won't know the difference if he/she got L2 or L3. Meanwhile the ski school gets to save payroll budget because they just booked the L2.

FWIW, there are many L2 instructors that are really really good.

 

[markojp]

Yes indeed, there are L2 instructors who are very good. I've had the pleasure to coach with some! That said, in our region, I've never heard of resorts undercutting L3 hours and assignments to save a few bucks. Again, I'd love to know which areas/owners practice this.

 

[4ster]

What is the motivation for a ski resort to motivate instructors to continue to pursue higher level of pay structure when ski school can tell the customer, "Why yes, I can get you one of our highest qualified instructors"
The average customer won't know the difference if he/she got L2 or L3. Meanwhile the ski school gets to save payroll budget because they just booked the L2.

FWIW, there are many L2 instructors that are really really good.

I agree there are many really good LII's. There are also some good none certs.

^That business plan has no sustainability.

This. More experienced instructors with higher certs would, I assume, be better for turning visitors into life long skiers (citation needed) - but you can get away with much cheaper employees by having newbie instructors teach beginners.

 

[Tricia]

That business plan has no sustainability.

I couldn't agree more.

Let me add this.
I'm not sure that a resort makes a decision for such practices. But some resorts enforce payroll budgets that may influence decisions by departments to avoid going over budget.

A situation that I witnessed at N* last winter:
I have a handful of really good instructors that I tend to recommend to boot customers. A couple of these instructors are L3, most are L2.
Every single person I talked to after the lesson said that they had one of the L2's I recommended.

When I had a chance to sit and have wine with my L3 friends they told me they were sorry they missed my "private request" customer because they

• One was busy doing specialized clinics in a program they were doing which is essential a high level group lesson.
• One was "promoted" to organize a couple of the clinics and also spends time working with L1's to get ready for their L2.

Both of these instructors missed out on several "private request" lessons with customers who tip well because the resort has relegated them to special clinics for customer groups and clinicing other instructors.

I'm sure this doesn't happen everywhere.

 

[fatbob]

/\

Flipside of that is L3s aren't available because the ski school has prioritised them in ensuring they get steady work. I struggle to believe that L3s are going home from lineup early while customers who request a L3 are being told there are none available.

I realise Vail probably has algorithms for everything though so maybe I'm being naive. At the extreme that would mean if too many instructors rise to L3 a number would be cut de facto.

 

[markojp]

Yeah, I don't no of any cases of L3's being sent home when they'd rather work. Occasionally someone just gets worn out and needs a day off, but in my experience, having strong instructors in the lineup makes everyone's day easier and guests happier.

 

[L&AirC]

I don't think the issue is so much the cost of becoming certified as it is the lack of motivation provided by most (not all) ski area management.

I don't think LIII is designed for part time or short term instructors. It is difficult because it is designed for full time professionals & along with study, training & clinics it requires concentrated practical experience.

I agree. At this level it is definitely becoming a vocation. Most of the L3s I know that aren't full time, got L3 when they were younger but now have employment outside of skiing. They love skiing and instructing, but they won't do anything that will jeopardize their other career either. You also have to consider that even full time L3s and Examiners, this is still a seasonal job. Around here most do construction or landscaping during the warmer months.

 

[Tricia]

/\

Flipside of that is L3s aren't available because the ski school has prioritised them in ensuring they get steady work. I struggle to believe that L3s are going home from lineup early while customers who request a L3 are being told there are none available.

I realise Vail probably has algorithms for everything though so maybe I'm being naive. At the extreme that would mean if too many instructors rise to L3 a number would be cut de facto.

I think that is a big part of it.
The resorts are likely trying to make sure that the L3's never go home because there isn't a lesson for the day, so they may be tied up with "full time" work that is guaranteed and unavailable for those private requests.

Still, its disappointing to recommend an instructor to someone that you know is high level and a good fit, only to find out the lack of availability.

 

[Bad Bob]

I agree. At this level it is definitely becoming a vocation. Most of the L3s I know that aren't full time, got L3 when they were younger but now have employment outside of skiing. They love skiing and instructing, but they won't do anything that will jeopardize their other career either. You also have to consider that even full time L3s and Examiners, this is still a seasonal job. Around here most do construction or landscaping during the warmer months.

L&AirC's post tells the story of this career path.

This has been an interesting thread to follow from the shadows. Nearly 40 years ago I stopped instructing, after chasing it for 13 seasons. This discussion was as timely then as it is today. Unfortunately when the choice finally comes down to supporting your young family or having a low paying career you love, for most there is no choice at all.

You have to wonder if there even is a solution to this problem.

 

[4ster]

I agree. At this level it is definitely becoming a vocation. Most of the L3s I know that aren't full time, got L3 when they were younger but now have employment outside of skiing. They love skiing and instructing, but they won't do anything that will jeopardize their other career either. You also have to consider that even full time L3s and Examiners, this is still a seasonal job. Around here most do construction or landscaping during the warmer months.

Not to say there are not exceptions but for the most part one needs to actually teach a lot of lessons to pass the teaching portion of an LIII exam. Those who stick with it as a full time profession definitely need to have something steady going on in the off season as well as a possible second job or self employed kind of business going on during.

There's also a select few like @jimtransition who chase it year round. I know of one couple who have been doing it for I'd guess at least 30yrs. but they are at the very top of the top & have no kids.

During the first 20yrs. of my teaching career, beginning in the mid 70's our full time crew was paid a daily rate. I would say that 80% of the full time staff were at least LII certified. At the end of that era before moving into a salaried position, I was making a guaranteed $120 dollars a day (that's about $230 in todays dollars) for teaching up to 4 hours of group lessons. I could also add 2 hours of private lessons in there on many days & make 50% of the cost of those lessons on top of my daily rate, so maybe another $60 ($115 today). The daily rate was based on an 8 hour day & full timers were expected to fill in on other duties if needed but even with a pretty full teaching day, I always managed to get a few free runs in.

In comparison, the last year I taught full time in 2014 my base teaching rate was $15/hr, $27 for request private lessons. Even though most of my time was spent as a trainer & other duties, the most I could make teaching groups in a day was $60 & AFAIK, I was the top paid instructor. $60 today or what would've been over $300 at my 1990 rate calculating inflation with no raises... CRAZY!!!

This was a small to medium sized family owned ski area who knew how to take care of their employees & our core full time crew could easily pay rent & put food on the table during the winter. Even though we were basically a day area our goal was (as @Monique stated) to create lifelong skiers & management understood the value in that. Even with that, I needed a lucrative summer business to do more than make ends meet.

Today's structure is completely out of balance & if things don't change it will be near impossible to find quality instruction in a few years. The outcome of that will just mean more out of control skiers on the hill & a bigger rise in the cost of health care .

 

[4ster]

You have to wonder if there even is a solution to this problem.

The solution is to cut the lesson cost in half & double the instructor wage... easy peasy

 

[BS Slarver]

How about direct booking to the professional and then a little cut to the man ?
Oops, forgot .... thieft of services, yes ?

What's an all day ( 6 ) hr. private at Vail run these days anyway...... $ 900 ?

 

[L&AirC]

The solution is to cut the lesson cost in half & double the instructor wage... easy peasy

For beginners it should be free. Not just one clas like the Discovery, but free. You buy a ticket, rent the boots and you can have lessons all day, every day until your comfortable. No one should have to pay until they understand things like a good skiers stance and how the gear works, and how to pressure the ski. The basics.

Do that and you'll have a line into the parking lot. This sport is so expensive to get into and everyone is trying to maximize every nickel spent. They are taking lessons only after their friends failed to teach them and that's if they didn't get hurt (and is my first day but I never took the lesson because it was too much -I was a kid in the 70s).

Once some one can ski and ride the lift comfortably, then charge them but again, it shouldn't cut in to their ability to come back the next day and buy another ticket.

Season pass holders shouldn't have to pay either. At a minimum it should be a discounted rate. Maybe create a season pass that includes lessons and is dependent on your abilities.

Right after I win power ball I'm buying a ski area and that's what I'm going to do. If I don't make any money, I'll have a blast and know I got a ton of people into skiing that would have never done it or stuck with it.

I also think if your local school is participating in the mountains After School Program, they should get a class or two at the school during PE on gear, skier etiquette and all the things that can be covered in the gym.

Now, back to reality.

Ken

 

[4ster]

What's an all day ( 6 ) hr. private at Vail run these days anyway...... $ 900 ?

I would say that's pretty close. So half of that is $450 minus my $180 (my base rate doubled times 6hrs.) The bean counters are still making $270, maybe they should triple my rate & I make $270 & they make $180 & the guest is happy & wants to do it again!

 

[4ster]

Now, back to reality.

I would say that's pretty close. So half of that is $450 minus my $180 (my base rate doubled times 6hrs.) The bean counters are still making $270, maybe they should triple my rate & I make $270 & they make $180 & the guest is happy & wants to do it again!

This is reality^

Did I mention that we also got a free lunch back before the millennium

 

[Tricia]

I think it would be interesting to post a series of polls on this topic.
Poll #1: Is teaching your only source of income?
Poll #2: What level are your ski instructor credentials?
Poll #3: How does your resort pay instructors based on credentials?
Poll #4: Are you planning on furthering your credentials as an instructor?

 

[BS Slarver]

I was off just a wee bit ..... if you book now on line you get a discount