Things that promote accessibility for getting into ski racing

[Lauren]

Take Nordic out of the equation.

Fair…I did not separate them out. Regardless, I still think having individuals to look up to is invaluable for athletes, even if it’s just a few people from the US on the team.

 

[nnowak]

Exactly.

You can have a fun participation sport where you keep it as local/ volunteer as possible with possibly homestay exchanges for visiting athletes, donated space on the hill etc.

Or you can try to establish a full competitive development pyramid at significant cost.

Blending the two seems pretty hard. Verging on impossible when you consider the profit motive of major resorts and indeed the competing recreational market needing that space on the hill, those hotel rooms etc.

I don't think the two need to be mutually exclusive. My sense is that part the European racing success is specifically because they do a better job blending the two.

 

[Brian Finch]

Take Nordic out of the equation. For Alpine, 4 out of 10 are US born for the women, and 3 out of 10 for the men. Nordic is basically the opposite with 8 out of 12 women being US born, and all 10 men are US born. All of the mid-west athletes are on the Nordic team.

This Nordic vs. Alpine demographic disparity is something I noticed in the rosters of many other universities. Is the US flooded with super talented Nordic athletes, but there is a shortage of similarly talented Alpine athletes in the US? Or, are there systemic structural issues in the US alpine pipeline?

There’s a couple things at play here. Let’s first chat Nordic - Nordic actual has “Pro” squads. The 2 biggest are are based in Alaska & Vermont. So there’s a path. These squads also routinely have a blend of WC & NCAA plus are open to visitors. They can roller ski or bike for miles everyday for training.

Relative to Alpine, I feel like a super hero when I ski in Euroland…. It’s a culture thing, but too- they have massively open terrain. Then there’s the grooming…. I was on the hill in Austria recently & there was a crease in the groomer track. The Euros were all but demanding their tickets refunded…. We told em I hope you never ski Killington early season Europe just affords better terrain to improve skills upon.

 

[Tricia]

There’s a couple things at play here. Let’s first chat Nordic - Nordic actual has “Pro” squads. The 2 biggest are are based in Alaska & Vermont. So there’s a path. These squads also routinely have a blend of WC & NCAA plus are open to visitors. They can roller ski or bike for everyday for training.

Relative to Alpine, I feel like a super hero when I ski in Euroland…. It’s a culture thing, but too- they have massively open terrain. Then there’s the grooming…. I was on the hill in Austria recently & there was a crease in the groomer track. The Euros were all but demanding their tickets refunded…. We told em I hope you never ski Killington early season

Side question here:
Do you know if there's still much coming out of the UP of Michigan?
I know that the birthplace of organized skiing came out of Ishpeming Michigan because of the Finns, Norwegians and Swedes who all came from a nordic background.
They also have an enthusiastic ski jumping training centers for youth up there.

 

[Brian Finch]

^ there are some here this summer. You also have kids from Utah racing at Michigan.

 

[Tricia]

^ there are some here this summer. You also have kids from Utah racing at Michigan.

Another side note:
If you ever want to get butterflies in your tummy, visit Copper Peak A ski Flying location
We visited. Phil had me take the selfie because he wanted to hold on to the rail with both hands.
It's designed to sway 18" each way to allow for wind/weather. It did.

 

[skiJ]

Tricia, I don't believe there is a lot going on in alpine racing coming out of the U.p. right now -
there is high school racing, but the FiS racing cited up-thread is at Nubs, and then over along the Minnesota border.
The last ... club race team that I was familiar with was at Norway, which I believe is again Closed ( and I heard this Spring, Ron may be headed to Granite Peak ) ;

The Nordic cross country programs appear to still be strong at Northern and Tech, as both colleges had qualifiers for Nationals this Spring.

I don't know about youth ski jumping - Pine still has it's platforms and -I believe- a regional annual tournament
( I have not heard anything about Ishpeming... )

The big news that I am aware of ( and maybe this is what you were referring to ) is Michigan has approved 20M in funding to revitalize Copper Peak, including ( it is my understanding ) making it a year-round ski flying landing hill and training center.

I don't know how far 20M goes with a project like that -
the chairlift to access the scaffold is ancient ; and the landing hill ,,, is a rugged cliff ( there have been a couple hill climbs - and I believe one a decade ago was preceded by a 'speed trap' on the landing hill before it got tore-up by the hill climb ) ;
I don't believe there has been ski flying since the early 1990s ( and with a big gap before that, too ).
The platform has been maintained as a sightseeing destination.
the elevator is operating --

as a training center ,,, I don't know.
There are a couple of Fitness businesses - but the real physical training facilities would be at the colleges more than 100 miles away ( Tech or Northern or Duluth ) ;

my understanding (is), the governing body(s) have been involved in the planning process ( FiS (? maybe) and USSA ) at Copper Peak , so that is,,, hopeful.

in closing, there are a handful of local people who have been Very dedicated to Copper Peak's survival, And this revitalization project -
( I would not want to leave anyone out, so I am not going to say more than Charlie's name has been synonymous with Copper Peak for a long time, and that team of people ,,, have been Dedicated ) .

oh. I Should have mentioned the alpine racing program at Marquette Mountain -
though I only know a little about one of the families involved, it is my understanding that there is a thriving youth racing program at Marquette.

: ) skiJ

 

[fatbob]

I don't think the two need to be mutually exclusive. My sense is that part the European racing success is specifically because they do a better job blending the two.

They blend it because basically if you're a kid in the Tirol you'll have primary school sport lessons for half a day a week on the ski hill in season. Then add in high school and ski clubs for every village ( volunteer staffed). Plus I suspect little if any in the way of upcharges for hill space. I've skied at a tiny local place in the Innsbruck valley where the masters upload first bin and set up a course for the morning everyday. NB this is relatively tiny but the hill is still served by a new Chondola and at least a GS length course.

Then re competition you can basically drive there and back everywhere in Tirol and Salzburgerland in a day ( or even take the train). But out of Innsbruck you can hit say 20 hills in an hour so pretty high pool of competition right there.

In places like Colorado, SLC, Tahoe NH/VT you could easily achieve the same. But you probably need VR and Alterra to buy in.

 

[Tricia]

Tricia, I don't believe there is a lot going on in alpine racing coming out of the U.p. right now -
there is high school racing, but the FiS racing cited up-thread is at Nubs, and then over along the Minnesota border.
The last ... club race team that I was familiar with was at Norway, which I believe is again Closed ( and I heard this Spring, Ron may be headed to Granite Peak ) ;

The Nordic cross country programs appear to still be strong at Northern and Tech, as both colleges had qualifiers for Nationals this Spring.

I don't know about youth ski jumping - Pine still has it's platforms and -I believe- a regional annual tournament
( I have not heard anything about Ishpeming... )

The big news that I am aware of ( and maybe this is what you were referring to ) is Michigan has approved 20M in funding to revitalize Copper Peak, including ( it is my understanding ) making it a year-round ski flying landing hill and training center.

I don't know how far 20M goes with a project like that -
the chairlift to access the scaffold is ancient ; and the landing hill ,,, is a rugged cliff ( there have been a couple hill climbs - and I believe one a decade ago was preceded by a 'speed trap' on the landing hill before it got tore-up by the hill climb ) ;
I don't believe there has been ski flying since the early 1990s ( and with a big gap before that, too ).
The platform has been maintained as a sightseeing destination.
the elevator is operating --

as a training center ,,, I don't know.
There are a couple of Fitness businesses - but the real physical training facilities would be at the colleges more than 100 miles away ( Tech or Northern or Duluth ) ;

my understanding (is), the governing body(s) have been involved in the planning process ( FiS (? maybe) and USSA ) at Copper Peak , so that is,,, hopeful.

in closing, there are a handful of local people who have been Very dedicated to Copper Peak's survival, And this revitalization project -
( I would not want to leave anyone out, so I am not going to say more than Charlie's name has been synonymous with Copper Peak for a long time, and that team of people ,,, have been Dedicated ) .

oh. I Should have mentioned the alpine racing program at Marquette Mountain -
though I only know a little about one of the families involved, it is my understanding that there is a thriving youth racing program at Marquette.

: ) skiJ

When we visited Copper Peak they talked about the funding coming in and the plans to revitalize it.

Yes, I've heard about some racing programs at Marquette Mountain, but not in detail.

When we were in Ishpeming for the enshrinment ceremonies in 2019 the youth from the ski jumping program served us a pancake breakfast at the local school. It was pretty cool to talk to them about their hopes and dreams.

Annual Suicide Hill Ski Jump - Ishpeming Ski ClubIshpeming Ski Clubhttps://ishskiclub.com › annual-suicide-hill-ski-jump

 

[nnowak]

Side question here:
Do you know if there's still much coming out of the UP of Michigan?
I know that the birthplace of organized skiing came out of Ishpeming Michigan because of the Finns, Norwegians and Swedes who all came from a nordic background.
They also have an enthusiastic ski jumping training centers for youth up there.

Blackjack and Indianhead (UP of MI) got bought out by the owners of Lutsen (MN) and Granite Peak (WI). The two resorts have been renamed Black River Basin and Jackson Creek Summit respectively. The new owners have promised a lot of improvements (desperately needed), but last year, the first under the new owners, was mostly just rebranding. USSS Central division runs several region wide races and training camps on these hills, so any improvements will certainly be welcome. Granite Peak have been very supportive of racing, so that is a good sign too.

 

[skiJ]

Blackjack and Indianhead (UP of MI) got bought out by the owners of Lutsen (MN) and Granite Peak (WI). The two resorts have been renamed Black River Basin and Jackson Creek Summit respectively. The new owners have promised a lot of improvements (desperately needed), but last year, the first under the new owners, was mostly just rebranding. USSS Central division runs several region wide races and training camps on these hills, so any improvements will certainly be welcome. Granite Peak have been very supportive of racing, so that is a good sign too.

One resort - Snowriver - two hills ( as identified above ) -
at Jackson Creek, three chairlifts have been removed, and a new Six-seater is under-construction, running from the base of the old triple, to the top of the east double ;

in fairness to the Company, the purchase did not close until late last year ( September2022 (?) ), and the changes to the chalet at Jackson Creek for the '22-'23 season were significant, with new outside ticket windows, moving the shop to the main level and extensive refinishing...

Maybe there will be FiS racing at Snowriver in the future ( I have no information about that ) ;

The Company has a different business model and the skiing is more expensive.
whether the new lift and other changes will lead to a growth in snowsports customer visits remains to be seen
( the new lift will certainly change the way that hill rides
( the west double remains in-place, and I anticipate it will be used on race days ) )

There is a nice series of updates on the lift construction on the Snowriver website...

Voyageur Express

Snowriver is proud to be the first ski resort in the Upper Peninsula to offer a high-speed lift. Serving up 538' of vertical in just over 3 minutes, you're legs will be tired before your toes get cold!

www.snowriver.com

skiJ

 

[nnowak]

One resort - Snowriver - two hills ( as identified above ) -
at Jackson Creek, three chairlifts have been removed, and a new Six-seater is under-construction, running from the base of the old triple, to the top of the east double ;

That new chairlift should be a great improvement and hopefully signals the end of chairs falling off of the cable

The Company has a different business model and the skiing is more expensive.
whether the new lift and other changes will lead to a growth in snowsports customer visits remains to be seen

Higher ticket prices are understandable given how much work is needed to clean up the decades of neglect at both areas.

 

[Tricia]

not actually correct. They signed 3 US women (2 local) and 1 US man ( again local) this season. And while UNR may be doing photo ops at Sky Tavern, last season they were training at Mt Rose ( full disclosure, I am head coach there) where we were loading at 6.30 am for them. And yes my Far west athletes had several opportunities to train alongside them.

and to get back to the original point of the thread. I’m sorry but there appears to be some almost bipolar thinking. We want to reduce the costs of ski racing to get more people involved. But then we also seem to have this utopian idea that that by itself will get more of our athletes to the top level while somehow ignoring the costs involved in that - travel, hotels, equipment, training etc. I don’t somehow see top level racing going to1 pair of skis…. So where does the funding magically appear from to provide all the subsidies to support this desire to bring a whole lot more in? just being realistic

so what is the preferred objective?

Nice news story about UNR Ski Team today

Nevada Ski Team

Nevada Ski Team

www.kolotv.com

 

[nnowak]

Nice news story about UNR Ski Team today

Nevada Ski Team

Nevada Ski Team

www.kolotv.com

"Right now, I am the only American on the guy's side"