Things that promote accessibility for getting into ski racing

[fatbob]

It kinda depends what the NCAA is for. If it's going to be a professional breeding ground then it seems you'd be better selecting US kids as an alternate pathway to the USST. Euro recruits are probably not the cream of the crop given I can't imagine a kid with a solid chance of WC or Europa Cup starts throwing it in for the NCAA.

The alternative is to regard NCAA as an amateur adjunct to education, as presumably it originally started as for all sports before those big sports became huge revenue drivers. In which case make the best of whoever is there already and maybe you'll turn up the odd gem. But the primary goal should be to turn out future coaches for the kids of the future.

It needs to be a 20 year plan not a 10 year plan to get the next Mikaela. You might never get one of them again.

 

[nnowak]

The guy just got hired. Give him a chance.
And as far as the foreigners go, most universities have a broad student base from around the globe.

I am not necessarily blaming him as it is more a fundamental flaw in the NCAA rules

One of the things he said he wanted to do is have some of his training at the local ski areas, like Sky Tavern, Mt Rose, Diamond Peak, as well as the larger resorts like Palisades Tahoe.
By including the smaller hills in the race training and showing the local kids that, they too can be a collegiate level racer will impact community growth.

This assumes they are even training at peak times and not during the day when most kids are in school.

You have to start somewhere, and you have to be competitive. Finding the balance is key.

The "somewhere" is at the NCAA rules making process.

 

[nnowak]

Perhaps that's where we disagree. I don't think it is the responsibility of colleges to turn away superior athletes because of their nationality.

But these foreign athletes are not necessarily superior. If your recruiting effort primarily focuses on FIS points, you will automatically exclude the vast majority of US born youth ski racers from consideration.

 

[skiJ]

is NCAA ski racing a scholarship sport ?


it is Not my impression NCAA ski racing is a (major) route to the US Team - at least not in Alpine racing -

If it's club racing -- as college racing is in the midwest, it is a moot point to me
( it is my understanding that much of the club racing ( Not scholarship ) became NCAA racing simply Because the NCAA has the bureaucracy to administer it )
( nothing about the racing changed - except where the paperwork went )

even if it's a club program there are incentives for schools to have athletic success.

is NCAA ski racing a scholarship program (?)

( I still don't believe NCAA racing would be a significant path to the US Ski Team )


Thank you. skiJ

 

[BLiP]

is NCAA ski racing a scholarship sport ?

Yes, there are a handful of teams that give out skiing scholarships (UNH, UVM, Denver, Colorado, Utah, I assume Nevada, etc.)

If it's club racing -- as college racing is in the midwest, it is a moot point to me

College club racing is an entirely different beast. Programs differ, but in my limited experience, they are often social clubs that occasionally ski. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[skiJ]

Thanks for the insight, BLiP -

gosh, the college racers I have known were Very dedicated to ski racing
( to me ( and my experience with college ski team racers ) it would be like saying Masters ski racing is ' a nice hobby' ! [ duck ] )

I will bet there are 10x the number of NCAA ski racers as there are scholarship NCAA ski racers - so I will stand-my-ground to the idea that NCAA racing is not a major path to the US Ski Team.

as far as giving ski racing scholarships to international "students" , I would imagine the schools have established policy for awarding scholarships ;
If that's based on FIS points, someone could certainly spend years through high school and beyond trying to qualify for an NCAA ski racing scholarship
( a college education could be more economical ! )

... thanks again... skiJ

 

[Brian Finch]

Kinda hard for the local community to feel included when only 2 of the 6 women on the team are from the US and all 6 men are foreigners.

The guy just got hired. Give him a chance.
And as far as the foreigners go, most universities have a broad student base from around the globe.

Last year I was running Skills Quest testing for USST at Holderness & Plymouth came to participate. My wife raced for Plymouth & the kids were awesome and agreed to take a picture for her. We got talking & they have 1 US national on the entire team / practice team. It's not a Cam issue. You have Euro's PG'ing for years awaiting a spot here.

 

[S.H.]

But these foreign athletes are not necessarily superior. If your recruiting effort primarily focuses on FIS points, you will automatically exclude the vast majority of US born youth ski racers from consideration.

Why?

U19/21 participation in non-FIS scored races has plummeted in recent years, because those athletes race FIS. It's not 2002 anymore, there are a TON of FIS races in this country, in all regions, and many/most of them are open entry.

 

[skiJ]

Why?

Because US club and high school racing does not give those racers an FIS ranking.

 

[S.H.]

Why?

Because US club and high school racing does not give those racers an FIS ranking.

US clubs are sending kids to FIS races all the time.

Real talk: are the kids without FIS profiles really competitive at an NCAA level? Maybe 1-2 across the country every year. Basically, no.

 

[S.H.]

It kinda depends what the NCAA is for. If it's going to be a professional breeding ground then it seems you'd be better selecting US kids as an alternate pathway to the USST. Euro recruits are probably not the cream of the crop given I can't imagine a kid with a solid chance of WC or Europa Cup starts throwing it in for the NCAA.

The alternative is to regard NCAA as an amateur adjunct to education, as presumably it originally started as for all sports before those big sports became huge revenue drivers. In which case make the best of whoever is there already and maybe you'll turn up the odd gem. But the primary goal should be to turn out future coaches for the kids of the future.

It needs to be a 20 year plan not a 10 year plan to get the next Mikaela. You might never get one of them again.

There have been several Europeans race NCAA and then race on World Cup, including Leif Haugen, who has been on world cup podiums and won a world championship medal in GS (and AJ Ginnis, who the USST gave up on).

NCAA is a great outlet for European 18-20 year olds who aren't quite breaking onto World Cup, but want to pursue an education, relax a bit, race NorAms, and live a life besides being a ski racer 24/7/365 ... and that often leads to better results.

NCAA programs report to their ADs and school administrations. The goal is to try and win, not be an embarrassment PR-wise, and, for skiing, generally pull up the academic qualifications of the athletic department as a whole. They owe nothing to the USST.

 

[fatbob]

NCAA is a great outlet for European 18-20 year olds who aren't quite breaking onto World Cup, but want to pursue an education, relax a bit, race NorAms, and live a life besides being a ski racer 24/7/365 ... and that often leads to better results.

Yeah I get all that but that means the programs are part of the all round person education not a racing hothouse. So nationality unbiased. Largely non scholarship. Fun racing with the odd superstar breaking out.

I think some people on this thread have unrealistic expectations about US downhill skiing competiveness at the top level given the structural issues that exist.

 

[crgildart]

There are people of various cultures and backgrounds who have the resources to go all in with their kids in ski racing.. But, there are not many/any role models who look different at the coaching levels or anywhere near the top. We need a Calvin Pete, and Arthur Ashe, Williams sisters, etc.. to get people from other backgrounds interested.

I also always wonder why there are not more top level racers from Japan?? Everything's there that they need except for the popularity of ski racing itself..

 

[skiJ]

US clubs are sending kids to FIS races all the time.

Real talk: are the kids without FIS profiles really competitive at an NCAA level? Maybe 1-2 across the country every year. Basically, no.

I understand your point, S.H. and I don't disagree, however ,,,

in the midwest, clubs are Not sending kids to FIS races "all the time. "
in the midwest, the lutsen Spring Series was the only FIS race that I am aware of.

I assure you, ( college) racing in the midwest is highly competitive !
Some of those racers continue in Masters racing as it is their defining life-long passion !
I thought there was an idea that college racing is a route to the US Ski Team -
in Alpine racing, I have not seen that since the 1960s ( Beattie at Colorado ).
_ _ _
I see the posts since I started drafting this ,
and I am not-sure what, 'my league/Division is better than your Division ' adds to the discussion ;
I strongly Agree with the idea of a misperception of the competitiveness of US ski racers in international elite / World Cup competition
( I think there are a couple of generations that think if Bode and Lindsey and Mikaela can, anyone can ( - given "accessibility" )

... no. These are once-in-forever people. )

grow ski racing... ?
1. get involved. work for your youth race team ;
2. sponsor a young racer.

... Thank you. skiJ

 

[Brian Finch]

I also always wonder why there are not more top level racers from Japan?? Everything's there that they need except for the popularity of ski racing itself..

bc they focus on Tech skiing more….

 

[S.H.]

Yeah I get all that but that means the programs are part of the all round person education not a racing hothouse. So nationality unbiased. Largely non scholarship. Fun racing with the odd superstar breaking out.

I think some people on this thread have unrealistic expectations about US downhill skiing competiveness at the top level given the structural issues that exist.

I mean, how many NCAA skiers are there currently on world cup in the top 45 or so in any discipline? Not super many. Off the top of my head:

Erik Arvidsson (USA, MID)
Erik Read (CAN, DU)
Leif Haugen (NOR, DU)
Trevor Philp (CAN, DU)
Brian McLaughlin (USA, DAR) - not on USST
George Steffey (USA, DAR) - not on USST
AJ Ginnis (GRE, DAR) - kicked off USST, only one NCAA start
Jett Seymour (USA, DU)
David Ketterer (GER, CU)
Tricia Mangan (USA, DAR)
Keely Cashman (USA, UU)
Paula Moltzan (USA, UVM)
Hilma Lovblom (SWE, CU)
Laurence St-Germain (CAN, UVM)
Ali Nullmeyer (CAN, MID)
Amelia Smart (CAN, DU)
Katie Hensien (USA, DU)

Sam Morse, Tommy Ford, Alice Merryweather, Nina O'Brien (USA) is/were Dartmouth students but didn't/won't race NCAA

But that doesn't mean NCAA can't be an *alternate* pathway to world cup.

 

[S.H.]

I understand your point, S.H. and I don't disagree, however ,,,

in the midwest, clubs are Not sending kids to FIS races "all the time. "
in the midwest, the lutsen Spring Series was the only FIS race that I am aware of.

I assure you, (NCAA) racing in the midwest is highly competitive !
Some of those racers continue in Masters racing as it is their defining life-long passion !
I thought there was an idea that college racing is a route to the US Ski Team -
in Alpine racing, I have not seen that since the 1960s ( Beattie at Colorado ).
_ _ _

racing in the midwest is great, and many current and former USST athletes grew up in the midwest. There were several FIS series in the midwest last year.

1. Giant's Ridge Recreation Area, 4x SL, 12/10-12/11
2. Spirit Mountain, 6x SL, 12/30-1/1
3. Lutsen, 4x GS, 1/2
4. Buck Hill, 4x SL, 1/14-1/15
5. Mt La Crosse, 4x SL, 1/21-1/22
6. Nubs Nob, 6x SL, 1/21-1/23
7. Buck Hill, 4x SL, 2/3-2/4
8. Mt La Crosse, 6x SL, 2/10-2/12
9. Lutsen, 4x GS, 4x SL, 3/23-3/26

Furthermore, I saw many midwest racers, from many clubs, in FIS races in Colorado this past year. Talking to them and their coaches, many are getting FIS starts elsewhere too. Kids who are at the level where they could reasonably race NCAA are getting FIS starts. Getting a representative FIS profile just isn't the issue that it was 20 years ago.

There are no (alpine) NCAA programs in the midwest.


ETA: none of this has anything to do with accessibility for getting into ski racing. Let's get back on track.

 

[skiJ]

or apparently ten years ago...

so. good for FIS racing.
none of the three clubs I have worked with in the upper midwest in the past ten years had kids racing FIS.

the list seemed to have almost as many ( US) Ski Teamers who did not race college, as raced ( and that was 'college kids' ), so I don't see that as persuasive to the idea college racing is a route to the World Cup...

it's nice that you are seeing kids from the midwest at FIS races in CO. . .
I guess that means if they want to race in FIS races, they can travel to CO
( good for FIS . Does that 'grow ski racing' ? Does that enhance "accessibility"... ?

nah. )

but I know three kids that have suitable equipment Because their coach maintains a garage of revolving racing equipment that those kids can use for a season or two, and then exchange for different equipment as they get bigger -

That keeps interest alive in my rural communities, and
that little ski team was State Champs in 2017.

is there a World Cup champion in that program ?
almost certainly Not. But

ski racing is "accessible" to those kids, and
with that, ski racing grows another half-generation.


Thank you. skiJ

 

[S.H.]

but I know three kids that have suitable equipment Because their coach maintains a garage of revolving racing equipment that those kids can use for a season or two, and then exchange for different equipment as they get bigger -

That keeps interest alive in my rural communities, and
that little ski team was State Champs in 2017.

is there a World Cup champion in that program ?
almost certainly Not. But

ski racing is "accessible" to those kids, and
with that, ski racing grows another half-generation.


Thank you. skiJ

I'd love to see more of this! Props to that coach, we need more folks like that. Non-elite ski racing is super important, and what I love more than anything on the elite side (and I've been involved in both).

This is really improving accessibility to the sport ... stuff like this should happen in more mountain communities, and folks need to be aware that these options exist.

 

[Tricia]

Kinda hard for the local community to feel included when only 2 of the 6 women on the team are from the US and all 6 men are foreigners.

You said it here.

I am not necessarily blaming him as it is more a fundamental flaw in the NCAA rules

This assumes they are even training at peak times and not during the day when most kids are in school.

The "somewhere" is at the NCAA rules making process.

You clearly don't understand Sky Tavern. Its a non profit that gets kids on snow.
Cameron wants to do a few things that will get the race team involved in the community surrounding Sky Tavern. There are various ways that he can help with synergy between the two organizations and help make ski racing more accessible for these kids.

From my own experience:
Start Haus donates a bunch of older race skis left over from their consignment sale as well as a bunch of random ski boots to the Sky Tavern Race program.
When they schedule their "fit day" Philpug, Andy Mink and I go there to help the kids and parents figure out what they need and fit them into ski boots.
These skis and boots are FREE to the kids.
I can totally see Cameron and the UNR Team getting involved in events like that.