What skills determine ability levels?

[fatbob]

I can work with a group of skiers who ski at similar speeds and have desire to ski the same type of terrain. I can give out individual instruction to the group members to make everyones lesson worthwhile. My main criteria is that no one skis terrain with me that is unsafe for them. My lessons are usually taught off piste on black and double black terrain so the safety concerns are real. I have had students drop Corbets and I have told some students that they would have to find another instructor if that was their goal because I wouldn't take them until I thought they were ready. I really try hard to listen to the students goals and then give them a day that exceeds their expectations. That's how you get returning clients and that's why as an organization my SS is ranked very highly in customer satisfaction within the industry.

I like this - it's kinda like a wise and gnarly shepherd job.

 

[François Pugh]

Canadian coaches categorize racers in several well defined levels, each with well defined objective criteria, based on specific tasks. You can lookup "snow stars" online for details.

Personally when looking at the recreational skiers, I tend to categorize them based on the ability to carve clean slalom turns on a green, blue or black run. That's often enough of an indicator. You would be surprised how very few people make it to the black...

I realize that's a reduced scope, but it's the same with cars and everywhere: a good F1 driver has different criteria than a drifter or a monster truck driver... I'm not going to blend then all into some idealized thing and make up some scale, perhaps one where I rate high...

Fast cannot be a goal unless you're on a course with some obstacles... otherwise it has no meaning, really... what, a tucking contest

For me, my purpose and goal is to understand skiing as deeply as I can and then ski as efficiently as I can.

Style is not relevant to me, I see it like more of a constraint than a tool, so I try to be objective.

Quote should have been in my reply above. I didn't expect the intervening post.
Fast can be a goal. Have you never felt the need for speed? I have.

 

[fatbob]

I think what most people are getting at is not that they can't ski "fast" or don't want to but rather that people who hold it out as their main ambition can be something of a liability. Sorry if that was too subtle.

We've all been in groups with THAT GUY who can't hold his place in a line and careens past or makes somewhat dubious passing moves. Don't be that guy who everyone says "after you" to. You don't know how much we are lampooning your style when we get behind you

 

[Monique]

IMHO the best solution is a private lesson.

Well, yeah, but not within everyone's means. And it's a pretty big financial bet when you don't know if you'll click with the instructor.

 

[Sibhusky]

Yes, if I'm telling you to go first every time, it's self preservation.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Usually avoid these wrecks but this could be worse than Epic.

Classic that if someone mentions the word fast they're labeled as a reckless yahoo who can't ski worth a dam. Even better to label someone's goals as ignoble. If your goal is to put around on the blue trails and measure your improvement somehow that's perfectly fine with me but not my cup of tea.

Whether I see a guy on the mountain laying sweet carves or a girl bouncing through moguls with perfect form it's not that I want to beat them, I want to ski like them. Since I don't have a ski instructor or buddies patting me on the back ONE way to measure improvement is to ski difficult terrain safely, with ease, and yes faster than last time.

 

[razie]

Quote should have been in my reply above. I didn't expect the intervening post.
Fast can be a goal. Have you never felt the need for speed? I have.

Not that much in a straight line though

My favorite thing to do at Mt. Tremblant is to get the "early pass" and hit the Le Soleil side twice in the morning with the long boards, top to bottom. There's a few different sections - it makes for an awesome SG/DH run, before lots of traffic shows up!! There's a jump or two in there as well. Then I bottle the adrenaline and save it for later...

 

[François Pugh]

Yes, if I'm telling you to go first every time, it's self preservation.

Also polite. If someone wants to ski faster than I want to ski on a narrow trail with blind corners, I stop an let them go by. It's the same thing driving on a twisty dirt road. Common courtesy.

 

[Doby Man]

Keep in mind that ski instructors look at and assess skiers for a living, so even little things like how adept at and comfortable carrying skis, putting poles straps on a wrist, standing in skis with the knees slightly bent and shin pressure against the boot tongue, how tense or relaxed the student appears and other stuff can give clues to a practiced eye.

You can tell a lot from the "parking lot walk". Sort of like a perp walk and how guilty they look of lacking skill in advance of an actual demo.

 

[Fishbowl]

Is the goal of skiing to get from point A to point B as fast as possible? Not to me. In fact, for me, doing that misses the point of skiing.

I'm sorry, I don't know why you are having such a hard time with this? At no time have I said that skiing should be about going as fast as you can, but you keep characterizing my opinion as such. I have said that the speed that someone skis at can be a reflection of their skiing ability. Making controlled turns at higher speeds requires a greater skill level than at slower speeds, The same is true of making those same controlled turns on variable terrain.That is why the ultimate expression of skiing expertise is the ability to make controlled turns at various speeds in various conditions.

The golf and martial arts references are to show that some sports grade their participants by actual results. This is Objective. In skiing the emphasis is on the instructors personal opinion of your skiing. This is Subjective. I hope you appreciate the difference here and how it effects instruction and evaluation methods.

 

[Sibhusky]

 

[fatbob]

I'm sorry, I don't know why you are having such a hard time with this? At no time have I said that skiing should be about going as fast as you can, but you keep characterizing my opinion as such. I have said that the speed that someone skis at can be a reflection of their skiing ability. Making controlled turns at higher speeds requires a greater skill level than at slower speeds, The same is true of making those same controlled turns on variable terrain.That is why the ultimate expression of skiing expertise is the ability to make controlled turns at various speeds in various conditions.

The golf and martial arts references are to show that some sports grade their participants by actual results. This is Objective. In skiing the emphasis is on the instructors personal opinion of your skiing. This is Subjective. I hope you appreciate the difference here and how it effects instruction and evaluation methods.

So far so obvious but isn't the point that golf or martial arts are competitive sports while skiing for the vast majority of participants isn't. Speed is kinda important in a ski off for assigning students to lesson groups but only in a macro sense - a nervous nellie might be technically sounder but slower than a testosterone tony who backseat bombs the slope while the person who finishes between them while doing nicely shaped wide turns should be put in the highest group of all. But I'd expect any competent instructor to pick that up without an objective test.

The only real issue is whether a student's overall ability " to make progress" would hamper the rest of the group's experience but that is affected by far more than speed - fitness and avoiding yardsales probably being bigger factors.

 

[fatbob]

& just to be clear I have been in group lessons where the primary sorting criterion between 2 groups worth of "advanced" students appeared to be some sort of "keep up" measure. i.e. lead instructor skied off with instruction to follow him as closely as possible. He then skied in a very measured way with plenty of varying radius in turns and lots of looking back for a fair distance and at a fair pace (I know all this because I was on his tails) and there was a clear divide between those who were with him and those who straggled. That seemed a fairly sensible way of sorting the group without causing offence to those who were in the "lower" group - they already knew that they'd struggle to keep up. The group in that instance worked fine bar the teenage boy who decided that he didn't like bumps and just quit via a side trail without discussing it meaning the rest of us were screwed while the instructor tried to fulfil his custodial duties (eventually he agreed with the boy's dad that he should quit the lesson and find his son). So the takeaway there was that speed was not as important for group cohesion as maturity and attitude.

 

[teledance]

After 53 seasons the old maxim " You've got to ski it all" is one the best pieces of advice for improving. Bumps, Powder, Crud, Race Courses, boring ass groomers, etc, even the kids luge track in the trees. My hard core days are behind me due to blown discs but it rarely hurts while skiing my favorite snow type, aka powder and there speed gets me 1-3 more runs in than most riders before it's used snow.

 

[PTskier]

Personally when looking at the recreational skiers, I tend to categorize them based on the ability to carve clean slalom turns on a green, blue or black run.

Where are rec skiers taught to carve? A few years ago when I was teaching in the U.S. it was all steering all the time. When I'm skiing now I listen in on a lesson very briefly, both in the U.S. and Canada, and I don't see or hear anything about carving.

 

[Monique]

ooh, can we have an in-depth conversation about how much edge is needed and how little steering before it counts as a carve?

 

[dbostedo]

Where are rec skiers taught to carve? A few years ago when I was teaching in the U.S. it was all steering all the time. When I'm skiing now I listen in on a lesson very briefly, both in the U.S. and Canada, and I don't see or hear anything about carving.

I'm not sure I get your meaning, but I've taken intermediate lessons at a three places over the last couple of seasons (2 in the mid-Atlantic, and 1 out west) and all of my lessons have been geared at using my edges properly and getting into a position where I can carve and learning to tip and use my edges versus skidding. It's not ALL carving necessarily, but it's having that ability and control for various turns and desires for where I want to go - i.e. skidding is fine, but only if it's my goal.

And I don't know that any of my teachers has really used the term "carve" per se, so maybe that's what you're picking up on by just listening in.

 

[Crank]

When you get into some really tough terrain, especially when combined tough conditions, The first down is usually the best skier...unless someone is hanging back to ski drag. Just sayin'. And that is not about speed. It is about competence and, perhaps, fitness.

 

[markojp]

Where are rec skiers taught to carve? A few years ago when I was teaching in the U.S. it was all steering all the time. When I'm skiing now I listen in on a lesson very briefly, both in the U.S. and Canada, and I don't see or hear anything about carving.

PT, let's go skiing! I'd love to put some of your preconceptions/misconceptions to rest. I'm also happy to be held accountable. Performance and physics are NOT owned by any one pedagogical model.

 

[markojp]

Is this thread dead yet?