Wanted: drill for narrow stance

[Cheizz]

Thanks @john petersen. I am not at all afraid to wedel once in a while. In fact, the short turns I am practicing are more slipped than carved. Not surprising, since I'm on my cheater GS skis (Völkl Racetiger GS UVO).

The pivot slips are also on the list. Thanks for all these suggestions.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Keep in mind I'm not saying I need a wide stance, just wider than I currently tend to have. See my avatar for reference

I'm not picking at @Cheizz, just noting that we all work on something different

I think your stance is ok, the question is it dynamic.

 

[oldschoolskier]

@Cheizz one thing that I see a lot of skiers do is ski the inside ski flat and press out with the outside ski. Combine this with the comment of not enough outside ski pressure I'm likely to guess that this is what you may be doing. They go hand in hand and tend one to think stance is too wide, though it may not be. It is just improper execution of edging a carve.

As to what drill to use to correct this......(good instructor jump in here please).

 

[LiquidFeet]

To narrow your stance, you need to move the inside ski over closer to the outside ski.
Three drills you can use are"lift and tap" the inside ski, "thumpers," and "shuffle."

Lift the inside ski up about one inch, then set it down about one inch closer to the outside ski, and repeat all the way through the turn until you like the stance width. Try to land the ski flat on the snow, tip and tail landing at the same time. This will feel like tapping it on the snow. If this is particularly difficult, try just lifting the tail at first and tap it down. If the tip is all you can lift, you are probably aft. Do not allow yourself to lift the tip; keep working on lifting the tail at first, to get yourself centered. Lifting and tapping the tail of the new inside ski is called "thumpers." Make the thump sound. Once you have this going, progress to lifting the whole ski. Only one inch or so! (Well, maybe two. )

You will find that it's difficult to tap the inside ski all the way through a series of linked turns; there will be pauses when your body refuses to lift it. This is normal; the challenge is to keep working at it until you can tap continually. Try to switch which foot you are tapping in between turns without a pause. Doing this will pin-point for you when your new turn starts.

Once you can tap all the way through the turn, you'll probably be skiing with a narrower stance. Then you can keep tapping that inside ski over whenever it gravitates outward until the new stance width feels easy to maintain - when you want it.

This drill will help you feel where that inside foot is; the tapping will tell you its place in space.
It will also force you to balance on the outside ski through the entire turn, starting at the precise point when you start the turn.
It will also help you stay centered on that outside ski, fore-aft-wise.
And you can do it on any pitch.

Another drill, easier than lift-and-tap, is shuffle. Shuffle means slide one ski forward while sliding the other backwards, then do it the other way; shuffle shuffle shuffle, fast little shuffles. Shuffle your skis fore-aft through gentle turns on easy pitch terrain. When you shuffle, your stance will narrow to one that's "normal." You'll be using the stance width you use when you walk; it will match your anatomy. Shuffling will also help get you centered fore-aft-wise. But it won't have the added advantage of helping you concentrate your weight on the outside ski, nor will it ask you to transfer all your weight immediately as you start the new turn. This immediate transfer is not necessary for all turns; but it's good to be able to do.

 

[Josh Matta]

@Cheizz one thing that I see a lot of skiers do is ski the inside ski flat and press out with the outside ski. Combine this with the comment of not enough outside ski pressure I'm likely to guess that this is what you may be doing. They go hand in hand and tend one to think stance is too wide, though it may not be. It is just improper execution of edging a carve.

As to what drill to use to correct this......(good instructor jump in here please).

I think @oldschoolskier is right on here.

Many people confuse balance on the outside ski, with "press" on the outside ski. Many instructors even use the term press....

That is why outside foot to outside foot balance work is great to stop pressing. It is impossible to "press" when the inside ski is lifted or mostly lifted. I would start with the inside ski tip down and learn to a slow controlled round turn just balancing on the outside ski. The PSIA outside ski to outside ski drill with the intent to lift the whole ski is crap, and no one including D team member can do it with out dragging their poles.


I would go on to say that Pivot slips are just about worst thing for narrowing a stance if they are being done with hip socket rotation. If you focus on a narrow stance while doing a pivot slip you will most likely end up with pelvis rotation(bad) instead of femur rotation(good). A pivot slip done well will always have about hip width feet. Which is entirely acceptable stance width some if not most of the time.

 

[razie]

If you're narrower than Reilly, then you got a problem...if not however, then you're too wide:


this:

they're all level 4s, but JF is a sometimes wider, which is likely the reason for a visible A-frame.

The reason you can't get narrower is lack of balance, that's why skiing with a narrower stance is important, to build balance on the outside ski. When you "fall into a turn", you don't want to think of supporting with the inside foot - this is why most people keep it wider than needed. Instead you want to think just balancing on the outside ski throughout.

1. on dryland, develop one footed balance. use a bosu ball, a balance board or any other devices you can think of and spend time balancing on one foot

2. there is a specific drill you can do on dryland: put a cloth / towel on a flat shiny (slippery) hardwood floor. stand on it with the feet one foot apart. Then pull both feet together. This will develop some muscles seldom used outside of skiing. Warning: it is quite painfull in the beginning... but keeping your feet together does require conscious effort in the beginning.

3. on snow, the most important is to ski on one ski only. Lift the other heel of the snow and keep it close.

Here's JF - you can see he naturally narrowed the stance when standing on one ski only (as you remove weight off the inside foot, it's unnatural for it to stay far and wide - that would also change the alignment of the body, to compensate):

Then, after a few turns on one ski, with the inside heel lifted, start skiing with both skis on snow, but still weighting only the outside ski and paying attention to the stance.

The classic view on stance is that it should adapt to what you're doing. If you're doing a speed run over bumpy terrain at low edge angles, go wider, which tends to be more stable. Otherwise, a narrow stance provides the required mobility, as you want to be mostly on one foot anyways.

cheers

 

[Mike King]

Just for emphasis, I suspect that what others have suggested, that you ski in a wide stance because you are on the inside ski, is what the issue is. Rather than worrying about stance width, I suggest you work on getting on the outside ski. That is, outside ski drills. Start with changing edges the lifting the inside ski. Work on picking the inside ski up earlier in the turn until you can pick the new inside ski up before you change edges.

When you have command over the ability to direct pressure to the outside ski I suspect you will have a functional stance and stance width.

Mike

 

[john petersen]

I would go on to say that Pivot slips are just about worst thing for narrowing a stance if they are being done with hip socket rotation. If you focus on a narrow stance while doing a pivot slip you will most likely end up with pelvis rotation(bad) instead of femur rotation(good). A pivot slip done well will always have about hip width feet. Which is entirely acceptable stance width some if not most of the time.

Im wondering about this...and have had my demons with pivot slips so am inquiring. Pivot slips are used for leg steering awareness in drill form. "turning the legs from the hip sockets" mantra. Josh nails it.....femur rotation (good)

Pivot slips have more depth to them than we are being told!...its a conspiracy.
Pivot slips are technically and deceivingly very difficult. I had good success with them this year....but have a way to go before I feel I really own them. Pivot slips are very tough to do with a wide stance. the key for me in making them smooth and efficient with a narrow (natural) stance is to incorporate lead change (appropriate amounts, please) and fore aft movements of the feet that help facilitate counter and flat ski pivoting respectively, with a focus on constant movement....no stalling at any part of the pivot or slip. (controlled rate of decent)

This helps me in the bumps, with short turns, progressive counter, and hip/legs/torso awareness.
I still hate them!....well, its a love/hate thing...but mostly the latter!

Josh, what do you find them most useful for.....leg rotation...and.......???


for stance width, jump up in the air several times...where you land is a fairly good natural width. (and like Josh says...about hip width) One more thought.....long leg short leg on steeper or with faster stuff. our feet will (should) separated more and more as speed increases in a lateral sense....or vertical sense in relation to our lower legs, but the width of the feet stays about the same. (not counting extremes of course...like moguls or spring crud....where we do adjust our stance width a bit accordingly)

JP

 

[LiquidFeet]

John Peterson just posted:
"Pivot slips have more depth to them than we are being told!...its a conspiracy.
Pivot slips are technically and deceivingly very difficult. I had good success with them this year....but have a way to go before I feel I really own them. Pivot slips are very tough to do with a wide stance. the key for me in making them smooth and efficient with a narrow (natural) stance is to incorporate lead change (appropriate amounts, please) and fore aft movements of the feet that help facilitate counter and flat ski pivoting respectively, with a focus on constant movement....no stalling at any part of the pivot or slip. (controlled rate of decent)"

Those red things up above were the key for me when I finally "got" pivot slips.
Conceptually: both feet travel down the hill in straight lines, as if on rails. But they do things as they travel.
They swivel to point left-right, of course.
But the clincher is that one foot is always downhill of the other (so the skis don't bump into each other).
The feet take turns being uphill of each other.
The movement that got my goofed-up pivot slips to work was focusing these things:
--on sliding the downhill foot uphill - back up underneath me
--doing this as it swivels,
--while keeping it on the downhill track that it's assigned to.

This combination of things keeps the CoM between the feet up-down wise, and left-right wise.
If the feet get out ahead of the CoM in either of those planes, the skier will travel left-right.
If the feet leave their tracks, same thing happens.

Best of luck!

 

[T-Square]

Pivot slips are a phenomenal exercise. It is one of my go to drills. A properly executed pivot slip envelopes all the skills. Even as you are learning to execute a pivot slip the experience helps refine skills and teaches how to integrate them. The beginning of the season I use them to get my feet under me. I love the feeling of the slide while the skis turn under me.

Pivot slips are also a good tool to teach and improve short radius turns. Start with a pivot slip and then progressively get "edgier." The edging moves you into a short radius turn while the pivoting keeps the upper body facing down the hill.

 

[James]

Pivot slip is the go to drill to find neutral. It's not under the ball of the foot. If you're balanced there you won't stay in a corridor - feet on train tracks going downhill.
Bob had us do a version of pivot slips where we drifted diagonally backwards - towards heels and then forwards - towards toes. Sort of falling leaf pivot slips. Going forward we noticed was harder. Because we allowed ourselves to be too far forward in balance and not back of the arch - pretty much under the tibia.
He's also been known to have people do them while maintaining a V while pivoting.

It's also a good edge control drill.

 

[Alexzn]

Perhaps a contrarian view from a non-instructor. A narrow stance is not good for almost all kinds of skiing because it blocks you from developing high angles. Narrow stance is good in bumps, but there is happens naturally if you are doing proper turns. As many suggested, I would focus on getting on the right edge and the stance should fall into place.

The instructor videos a few posts above show awesome skiing, but the stance is too narrow for that kind of turns. I admire their ankle flexibility that lets them do those kinds of turns in that narrow of a stance, but none of us mere mortals would be able to carve that well in a stance that narrow.

 

[Josh Matta]

Alexn I think you have it wrong.....what is allowing Reilly angulation is his narrow stance....its not ankle flexibility but hip socket flexibility.

wider than hip width stance make its nearly impossible to maintain balance on the outside ski, and slow down the edge chance quite a bit. the thing is what you can balance entirely on the outside ski, there is no reason to have the inside ski far way.

 

[Magi]

One surefire way to get your feet closer together, and have great kinesthetic feedback while you do it:

Tape your feet together using Painter's tape, at or a bit above boot cuff height. (single loop, around both legs, then attach the tape back on itself)​

The tape will break if it needs to, and you'll feel a tug when you attempt to pull your feet wider than you've set the tape distance. Start at hip width, then go narrower 2-3 cm at a time.

 

[oldschoolskier]

When you look at GS skiers in a max edge turn their stance is actually very narrow limited only by clearance of boot and body. However the foot separation is very big. A lot of skiers intermix the two concepts and don't understand the difference or the implications.

Look at @razie avatar as a reference.

@Josh Matta is hinting at nicely hoping you catch on.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I have noticed that there are great drills suggested, however no mention of methods of checking if you have an issue or are making progress, especially if you practice alone.

So....if conditions permit, go back and review your tracks as they record (like record grooves) the actions of your skis, correct or incorrect.

Again, if you don't know how to read them a good lesson or two with an experienced instructor from the lift reviewing skiers and tracks will get you on your way in being a track reader as you will see both the action and the result real time. Alternatively the instructor can do a correct action and then review his track and an incorrect action and review the track, followed by you doing the action and both reviewing the track.

Lift rides are the best place to continue to hone this skill as for every run we take, a lift ride precedes it.

BTW this works best on groomed, packed conditions, or lightly dusted conditions.

 

[dj61]

I am actually training on an indoor snow slope (20% steep, 300 metres long). See picture below:
View attachment 24880

@Tricia my stance is quite wide. I ski shoulder-wide right now, but I would like to become more of a complete skier, just adding to mt bag of tricks. For carving long arcs, my stance is fine (could/should get more pressure on the outside ski, still). But for the short, slipped turn, I'm looking to improve right now.

And as I understand that getting more pressure on the outside ski allows for the inner ski to be placed right next to it - how do I accomplish THAT? I it a matter of confidence? Should I just slam my inner leg against my outer leg?

I'll have a try at most things you guys suggested so far. And I have a friend-instructor who often gives me great tips, but I am just browsing for drills or exercises to accomplish this single point at this time. SO, adding to my bag of drills as well, I suppose.

I think the key is to focus on your inside leg. After transition, forget your outside leg. If you lighten your inside leg, keep it pulled back, and flex it, your feet will automatically be close. Think about it this way. If you stand on flat terrain and you flex your left leg to stand on the right leg, your legs will be close together and so will your feet (in the vertical plane). You cannot do this with your feet shoulder width apart.
By definition you will have too much weight on your inside ski if you make turns with a wide stance. Balancing on two legs (wide stance) is perfect for downhill by the way. But it hinders in slalom.

 

[T-Square]

Another drill, 1000 steps. Your feet need to be closer to aid the transfer of weight from foot to foot as you move through the drill.

 

[markojp]

I think the key is to focus on your inside leg. After transition, forget your outside leg. If you lighten your inside leg, keep it pulled back, and flex it, your feet will automatically be close. Think about it this way. If you stand on flat terrain and you flex your left leg to stand on the right leg, your legs will be close together and so will your feet (in the vertical plane). You cannot do this with your feet shoulder width apart.
By definition you will have too much weight on your inside ski if you make turns with a wide stance. Balancing on two legs (wide stance) is perfect for downhill by the way. But it hinders in slalom.

What could help along the lines of your suggestion is some 70/30 or 80/20 work. Slow things down and pick your strong side foot first, and keep it continually weighted with 70% of your body weight through a series linked 'smedium' working toward shorter radius turns after a few sets paying careful attention to turn shape (linked C's with no pause in transition). Get this dialed, then switch feet after a few runs.

Next, alternate between left and right every 5-6 turns (shorter radius) working back toward all turns being 70% outside ski to outside ski every turn. This works particularly well for folks who have a hard time with true 100% one ski skiing* and is fun to play with for any skier when cruising flats or tracks getting between points A and B on the hill. This really helps learning to tip and engage the 'light' foot 'just enough' to keep it tracking parallel to the heavy ski, and will in most cases bring a very wide stance to a 'feet under femur head' width. From here we can work back toward higher performance 90/10 ~ 98/2 turns.

* many rec skiers don't have the core strength to lift a foot off the snow (even with the tip touching) for long periods of time though I doubt this is the OP's case.

 

[Kelly ander]

In the old days we used a bandana tied around the knees then bungies. An instructor pal came back from Austria and said they just pulled down their lederhosen