Wanted: drill for narrow stance

[Cheizz]

I hear you, @john petersen

I have the wide stance well in my bag. But I want the narrower stance also, just to be more versatile and be able to ski more conditions (terrain, snow conditions, personal fitness, maybe fatigue) wil more ease and efficiency. It's not my goal to replace my wider stance with a narrower one altogether, but to add it to my 'bag of tricks'.

 

[Swede]

Perhaps the outside to outside drill? Lift the inside and practice on skiing on just the outside ski. I have seen a lot of skiers with wide stances using the inside as a crutch.

 

[Cheizz]

Thanks @Swede, that's what I am working on right now. There are a number of drills mentioned here (and videos to be found online) for better balance and more pressure on the outside ski.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I think it's important to consider what we mean by "hip-width" as well. To some it may mean the overall width of the pelvis, to others and myself it may mean acetabulum to acetabulum, which would be the "normal" width that we use during everyday gait cycles (running or walking).

There are quite a few overall differences, in inches) between these two....if you look at my avatar, I'm about femur head to femur head apart, horizontally with my feet whereas the gentleman behind me is more around the pelvic-width zone...

zenny

I think you are on to something here in terms of hip width in more than what you think.

Some people with wide hips have a narrow stance naturally, some wide stance.

Same goes for those with narrow hips (relatively speaking).

What this indicates is that stance width is also controlled by physiological differences so a one size fits all definition doesn't work.

What does work is a reference to ideals as guideline for best result, adjusted for the individual. I feel that where the error is made is that this is forgotten when we address the issue.

 

[Rod9301]

Why would it matter how wide your hips are?

When you are skiing, if you have most of the weight on the outside ski, having a wide stance feels unnatural, contrived and makes you want to put weight on the uphill ski.

I can't think of any instance where I would want a wide stance. Except for going straight down.

 

[razie]

I think it's important to consider what we mean by "hip-width" as well. To some it may mean the overall width of the pelvis, to others and myself it may mean acetabulum to acetabulum, which would be the "normal" width that we use during everyday gait cycles (running or walking).

There are quite a few overall differences, in inches) between these two....if you look at my avatar, I'm about femur head to femur head apart, horizontally with my feet whereas the gentleman behind me is more around the pelvic-width zone...

zenny

For me - Hip Width = where my legs/feet would hang naturally if I were dangling on a pull up bar.

Yup - that's the one.

Further, CSCF defines it as "(hip width means the second toe lies under the centre of the hip joint)", in the boot setup manual.

Harald H. defines natural stance width as "the distance between the two iliac spines", also in his boot setup manual.

Why would it matter how wide your hips are?

Everyone has a different body build - even the way the femur connects to the hip differs. Most definitions I have seen, while slightly different, are all connected to the person's body type, but a good boot fitter will also take into account the individual's situation.

If you're looking for serious info, HH's manual is the most detailed. WW's books contain some info as well.

cheers

 

[PTskier]

the more you can balance on your outside ski the narrower your stance can be.

Yes!

The standard PSIA thing is wider stance for stability.

Very important, necessary, if the boots don't fit. If the boots fit right, the skier isn't unstable on one foot or the other.

you want to keep a strong skier stance which is usually described as having your feet about shoulder width apart.

The width of the shoulders has no relationship to the width of the pelvis nor how far apart a skier's legs should be. How about skiing with the legs walking-width apart where our bodies have been balancing us since we were a year or two old? Wider for the unaligned bow legged skier, narrower for the unaligned knock kneed skier.

For drills, practice pulling the inside ski across the snow until it touches your other boot, lighten it, make your easy turn. Touching the boot is only for the drill to learn the movement. Practice easy turns carrying something between your boots--a spare glove, etc. Practice pulling the new inside boot next to the outside boot, lift only the ski tail just a few mm, then make the turn. As you get good at these, make more aggressive turns where you need to lift the inside foot higher, still alongside the outside leg, still with the inside ski tail off the snow a few mm. Practice, practice, practice. How about a practice on an alpine glacier this summer?

 

[markojp]

"The standard PSIA thing is wider stance for stability."

Granted, I've only been involved in PSIA for 6 seasons, but I've never been aware of or have been 'taught' a PSIA 'wider stance'. Just curious where this comes from. Actual experience? Observation? That's not to say some pretty goofy stuff gets passed down and well mangled from original intent and instruction, etc... but 'wider stance' isn't in any manual that I own.

 

[James]

"The standard PSIA thing is wider stance for stability."

Granted, I've only been involved in PSIA for 6 seasons, but I've never been aware of or have been 'taught' a PSIA 'wider stance'. Just curious where this comes from. Actual experience? Observation? That's not to say some pretty goofy stuff gets passed down and well mangled from original intent and instruction, etc... but 'wider stance' isn't in any manual that I own.

Yeah it was definitely a thing. Manuals? Don't know, but how useful are they anyway? (Let's continue to spend hundreds of thousands on a nat'l demo team though, and the try outs, but have volunteers doing manuals.)

The standard demonstration is to push someone sideways as they stand still. It's done with the feet close together and then wide. When they fall over with the narrow stance but not in the wide the conclusion is that wide stance is more stable. It's supposed to be an earth shattering "duh" moment. Seen it dozens of times. Much less recently though.

Yeah, ok. How about pushing someone sideways while they're not moving on a bicycle? That would be stupid. We get that since childhood and gave up the training wheels. Yet the relation to outside ski balance in a turn is not made.

 

[Dave Marshak]

Yeah it was definitely a thing. Manuals? Don't know, but how useful are they anyway? (Let's continue to spend hundreds of thousands on a nat'l demo team though, and the try outs, but have volunteers doing manuals.)

The standard demonstration is to push someone sideways as they stand still. It's done with the feet close together and then wide. When they fall over with the narrow stance but not in the wide the conclusion is that wide stance is more stable. It's supposed to be an earth shattering "duh" moment. Seen it dozens of times. Much less recently though.

Yeah, ok. How about pushing someone sideways while they're not moving on a bicycle? That would be stupid. We get that since childhood and gave up the training wheels. Yet the relation to side ski balance in a turn is not made.

That was not my experience. I was trained almost entirely by Eastern Ed staff and national Demo team coaches, and they ever told me to push anyone sideways. It certainly wasn't a "standard demonstration." My trainers were completely open minded about stance width. Whatever worked was fine. Narrow in moguls, wider and looser for carving. Some drills required a wide stance, some a narrower stance, and some were done on one ski.

The whole idea that PSIA teaches any preferred stance width for all circumstances is just a rumor among inadequately trained instructors. It's not what the Demo Team teaches.

dm

 

[Rod9301]

That was not my experience. I was trained almost entirely by Eastern Ed staff and national Demo team coaches, and they ever told me to push anyone sideways. It certainly wasn't a "standard demonstration." My trainers were completely open minded about stance width. Whatever worked was fine. Narrow in moguls, wider and looser for carving. Some drills required a wide stance, some a narrower stance, and some were done on one ski.

The whole idea that PSIA teaches any preferred stance width for all circumstances is just a rumor among inadequately trained instructors. It's not what the Demo Team teaches.

dm

Not really true, most instructors advocate a wider stance than optimal, probably wider than hip width or close to it.

Even for carving, you need a narrow stance to avoid putting weight on the inside ski.

 

[James]

Yeah this was discussed on epic for many years. Too bad we can't pull up discussions from 15 yrs ago. When men were skiing on 155 slaloms and slalom was like a mini gs for a brief period in the early 2000's, it was used as justification for wide track.

And it was a thing in the East. I've seen many demos of the push people over. If one was a good skier, it didn't get brought up that much. Otherwise it did. Ironically, in moguls people go wide instead of very narrow, and people who lean in and don't balance on the outside foot go wide.

Next up: "Forward ", "tip pressure", and shins pressing the front of the boot.

 

[markojp]

Not really true, most instructors advocate a wider stance than optimal, probably wider than hip width or close to it.

Even for carving, you need a narrow stance to avoid putting weight on the inside ski.

Where and in which division do you ski? Just curious. What I do find is that there are some folks teaching who take a while to really figure out what WC'ers are doing, and even then, it's usually through a filter of someone on a training staff who has no race background or experience. There are a couple of 'popular' 10-14 year old vids of WC GS skiers doing some directed free ski type turns with a very wide stance... Unfortunately they don't realize or are unaware of the intent of the skiing.... 'the look' if you will without addressing the bigger picture of versatility, ski snow interaction/sensations, and tactical/gear considerations.

Then there's a the session with the 'ski like Stein' guy who really has problems with lateral balance and independent leg tipping movement... he gets told to 'widen your stance!', then says, 'well, the PSIA guys like a wide stance.'

 

[Dave Marshak]

Not really true, most instructors advocate a wider stance than optimal, probably wider than hip width or close to it.

Even for carving, you need a narrow stance to avoid putting weight on the inside ski.

I can't speak for most instructors, but I've never heard Mike Rogan or Eric Lipton or Katie Ertl or Jeb Boyd or any Eastern or Rocky Mountain examiner I've skied with demand a wide stance. In fact, skiing is the only sport I've ever done where stance is even a discussion. In all other sports, it's obvious to the athlete what the optimum stance is at any particular moment. Instead of worrying about your stance, you need to move to where you need to be.

You have the causality backwards about the wide stance/weight on the inside foot problem. You can balance on the outside ski from a wide stance, but if you need weight on the inside you can't get to a narrow stance. If I can't balance on the outside ski, bringing my feet together will only destabilize me.

dm

 

[James]

No one advocates wider than hip width afaik. That would have you on opposing edges.
Unless you're bowlegged. Then you need it.

In fact, skiing is the only sport I've ever done where stance is even a discussion. In all other sports, it's obvious to the athlete what the optimum stance is at any particular moment.

I'm sure stance is discussed in tennis. People use an extremely wide stance at times with a slide step to return serve. That's not "natural".
Hockey, even football and soccer also have their stance elements. It's usually just called footwork. Most obvious would be a goalie in hockey. Baseball is obsessed with stance in hitting. Golf?? Surfing?

Skiing is different in that the feet are highly constrained and attached to long things. So they don't move like other sports and thus the coversation is different. How many sports are played on 15-50 degree random slopes with uneven surfaces? Golf would be the closest. Or surfing.

Discussion of tennis stance for serving.

Hockey skating stride.

 

[Mendieta]

No one advocates wider than hip width afaik.

That's my (limited) experience as well.

Then you need it. I'm sure stance is discussed in tennis. People use an extremely wide stance at times with a slide step to return serve. That's not "natural".

Basketball coaching to youth (which I do) puts a lot of emphasis on the stance for defense, which is completely unnatural (we don't walk like this, but we can guard an opponent much better when standing properly, awkward as it feels). One of the drills I like is simulating 1 on 1, where you need to guard someone on a zig-zag, just to get used to the stance.

 

[Dave Marshak]

In all those other sports, it's all about how to create the movement that needs to be done. Lots of skiers seem to think there is a correct stance that must be maintained at all times, regardless of the task. That just isn't true.

The OP's question was "how do I learn a narrower stance?" In other sports, no one would ask that. The question would be "how do I hit the ball harder?" and the answer might be "try a different stance," or it might be a completely different answer. You don't start with the assumption that stance is causing problems. Usually balance problems cause the awkward stance.

dm

 

[NickZ]

I am quite awed at how Mr. Harb's ski instruction has lasted through the years. Yo soy un Harbista. His triumph was to be first to marry clear written explanation to stop action photography. All kudos he receives should be shared with the photographer. Great attention should be paid to the "Hi-C" phase of the turn. Roll onward to Ron LeMaster.

As for physical training regimens, I strongly recommend core work ... the abdomen area - crunch, extension, and twist. The latter two are often overlooked. An objective in steep, uneven and bumped terrain is to have the physical capacity to ski it as if it were groomed.

Your striving to keep skis close together runs counter to an issue I have always had ... keeping my skis far enough apart. So, I'd suggest ignoring any suggestion you may have heard one way or another. To discover if you are perhaps leaning in to the hill (a no-no) or not using your inside edge adequately (a good thing) I suggest two early season activities.

If you get up to the mountain on a weekday early season, you will find it cold, icy, flat, boring, and deserted. A little thread of manmade snow sandwiched between a huge dismal pile of rocks. This is exactly what you want. Start with a magic carpet, perhaps. Work your way up to a beginner/intermediate lift. Your mission is to ski this terrain well on one ski. When one leg gets tired, use the other leg. You are forced to make turns using your inside edge and outside edge. You are forced to rely upon pressuring the ski's tip and relying upon the ski's sidecut to carve but you must also, with each turn, spill a bit of speed by skidding (What John mentions ... but go easy on his Wedln [proper spelling] suggestion ... a bit of that can take you right over the edge and you will be back in the 1950's.)What you will find is that it is far easier to make turns in one direction than another (outside edge is more difficult). Keep training this way ... dedicate a half hour or an hour to this one drill. Get good at it and you will never have another problem in your skiing life.

Another drill I learned in an adaptive clinic. Remember those edgy wedgies that the instructors use with certain students with disabilities? Don't ski with them ... you will break them. What you need is the adult model ... two heavier duty carpenters clamps and some 550 cord. Allow 10-12 inches of slack in the 550 cord. Ski at speed with the setup and give me some feedback. It's a totally eerie experience that will change your skiing forever ... hopefully for the better.

 

[skimore1]

I know this is an older post but being fairly new here I thought I'd weigh in. one footed drills are good like stated above, weighting the outside ski and turning the hips down the fall line. Depending on the type of turn say 60/40 or even 70/30 weight to the outside of the turn centrifugal force will guide the inside leg with some steering to close the gap automatically from a wider stance to narrower. Play around with that to find a good balanced position. Keep a strong core and use good counter hips, hands toward the bottom horizon......... veel plezier!!!!!!

 

[razie]

weighting the outside ski and turning the hips down the fall line.