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Staying Low in transition
- Thread starter Loki1
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Uke, do you have this question after reading the entire thread? If so, perhaps the question may have not been answered from the following perspective. I believe your question can be answered in the context of any and all flexion being a function of the body alone and therefore limited to the relationship between the CoM and BoS. Once we do this, we can then divide flexion into three types: 1. Top-down flexion (moving the CoM to the Bos/ hip to ground) driven by the dropping motion created by “flex to release”. 2. Bottom-up flexion (moving the BoS to the Com/ground to hip) driven by a lateral motion created by “tipping to flex” and, 3. Retained flexion or “staying” (remaining) low in transition (maintaining same vertical distance between Com and BoS throughout the entire turn). -- We can further divide flexion into two directional types of movements: A. Lateral flexion which results in the horizontal separation of the CoM and the BoS and B. Vertical flexion which results in the vertical separation of the CoM and BoS. (there is also C: rotational separation of the CoM and BoS however not tangential to flexion).
Whatever one does, if they are using the distance between the hip and the snow surface as any type of technical cue or focal point of ANY type, chances are that the skier is using the flex to release model which, at speeds under 30 mph, ultimately promotes a vertical motion driven separation of the CoM and BoS. When this vertical motion bottoms out that is when we see the hip close to the ground. A regular touch with the inside hand of a non-elite level skier is often paired with this type of vertical motion. Looks good in photos but more like a hip dump motion in a video. Those who are purely focused on the relationship between the CoM and BoS tend to manage the third type of flexion or retained flexion more competently. They are also then free to create horizontal separation of the CoM and BoS through lateral movement of the feet from a focus on tipping. We want our CoM to ride the same low vertical distance over the BoS and only make changes to the horizontal separation between the CoM and BoS through tipping created lateral ski deflection as much as possible.
Removing any “bob” between the CoM and BoS frees up that vertical movement potential for tactical benefits such as adding a touch of vertical motion to enhance edge contact on the steeps, pumping the powder and allowing for that knee jerk reaction “drop” in our CoM when you are caught too far forward when skiing fast. If we hit such a snag when we are in the bottoming out phase of that vertical motion from flexing to release, top-down flexion, we may eat it instead. Also by removing that vertical motion, we are removing the work it takes to replenish and retrigger that motion which is a small squat exercise within each and every turn. Bottom-up flexion which is driven by tipping is replenished or retriggered by extension that is also driven by non physical effort as a lateral movement generated from tipping compared to that of said vertical motion. However, if our system is thriving on top-down “flex to release” flexion, we are then not free to establish the effortless lateral movement flexion we get from tipping the ski. You have to give up one to get the other. Here inlies the problem. While you can have a lot of one or the other, you can not have a lot of both because they are mechanically incompatible due to the different assignments for the CoM. When we attempt to give up on this vertical motion top-down flexion we discover how our entire system is/was reliant on that “bounce” for our DIRT, staying forward, balance enhancement and yes, actually tipping the ski to turn. Remaining on a path of development as an expert skier can be a difficult thing. If you are a technically plateaued expert or pro, rely on vertical motion in your regular - every day turns and are looking for a way to get through that technical performance wall to the next level, learning tipping to flex and eliminating your primary motor to vertical motion flexion could very well be the express ticket that could span your development beyond your current stagnation.
Whatever one does, if they are using the distance between the hip and the snow surface as any type of technical cue or focal point of ANY type, chances are that the skier is using the flex to release model which, at speeds under 30 mph, ultimately promotes a vertical motion driven separation of the CoM and BoS. When this vertical motion bottoms out that is when we see the hip close to the ground. A regular touch with the inside hand of a non-elite level skier is often paired with this type of vertical motion. Looks good in photos but more like a hip dump motion in a video. Those who are purely focused on the relationship between the CoM and BoS tend to manage the third type of flexion or retained flexion more competently. They are also then free to create horizontal separation of the CoM and BoS through lateral movement of the feet from a focus on tipping. We want our CoM to ride the same low vertical distance over the BoS and only make changes to the horizontal separation between the CoM and BoS through tipping created lateral ski deflection as much as possible.
Removing any “bob” between the CoM and BoS frees up that vertical movement potential for tactical benefits such as adding a touch of vertical motion to enhance edge contact on the steeps, pumping the powder and allowing for that knee jerk reaction “drop” in our CoM when you are caught too far forward when skiing fast. If we hit such a snag when we are in the bottoming out phase of that vertical motion from flexing to release, top-down flexion, we may eat it instead. Also by removing that vertical motion, we are removing the work it takes to replenish and retrigger that motion which is a small squat exercise within each and every turn. Bottom-up flexion which is driven by tipping is replenished or retriggered by extension that is also driven by non physical effort as a lateral movement generated from tipping compared to that of said vertical motion. However, if our system is thriving on top-down “flex to release” flexion, we are then not free to establish the effortless lateral movement flexion we get from tipping the ski. You have to give up one to get the other. Here inlies the problem. While you can have a lot of one or the other, you can not have a lot of both because they are mechanically incompatible due to the different assignments for the CoM. When we attempt to give up on this vertical motion top-down flexion we discover how our entire system is/was reliant on that “bounce” for our DIRT, staying forward, balance enhancement and yes, actually tipping the ski to turn. Remaining on a path of development as an expert skier can be a difficult thing. If you are a technically plateaued expert or pro, rely on vertical motion in your regular - every day turns and are looking for a way to get through that technical performance wall to the next level, learning tipping to flex and eliminating your primary motor to vertical motion flexion could very well be the express ticket that could span your development beyond your current stagnation.
Well - it's important to focus on tipping the skis onto the new edges (so early that some call it "untipping from the old edges")... but equating "flex to release" to a resulting up/down or top/down or vertical movement, it's just a matter of definition and I don't agree with yours. In fact, if you lookup the early articles on "flex to release", the tipping action is as important as the flexing action... here's a great article on the concept of flexing to release.
"6. Bending to release, tipping to release, tipping to engage"
Very few skiers flex. Of those, very few flex at the right time... and of those, some forget to also focus on the ankle movements and tipping the skis to the new edges. It is good to remind them to focus on tipping as well.
Up/down and relying on vertical movement is generally a result of extension or pushing to release (sometimes referred to as up-unweighting, cross-over).
Here's a good view of these concepts as well: the difference between frames 1 and 2 and 3 below, you can see how the old outside leg flexed a lot and also is tipped strongly to the new edges (as it's angle relative to the other one is much higher - hint: look at the knees):
Tipping did not create the flexion and the flexion did not create tipping. They both create a good release. Skimping on either will reduce the quality of the release.
cheers
"6. Bending to release, tipping to release, tipping to engage"
Very few skiers flex. Of those, very few flex at the right time... and of those, some forget to also focus on the ankle movements and tipping the skis to the new edges. It is good to remind them to focus on tipping as well.
Up/down and relying on vertical movement is generally a result of extension or pushing to release (sometimes referred to as up-unweighting, cross-over).
Here's a good view of these concepts as well: the difference between frames 1 and 2 and 3 below, you can see how the old outside leg flexed a lot and also is tipped strongly to the new edges (as it's angle relative to the other one is much higher - hint: look at the knees):
Tipping did not create the flexion and the flexion did not create tipping. They both create a good release. Skimping on either will reduce the quality of the release.
cheers
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You guys are making this too complicated. Standing straight up as you cross over the skis is tall or high at transition. Thighs parallel to skis at transition is low at transition. Ass touching heels is too low at transition.
Hm. I'm feeling like "very few skiers" right now. Not always, since it's fun to play with all kinds of transition (including — most fun, though with potential drawbacks — powerful old inside-leg extension), but flexed transition with early engagement is standard.
... but you're right, that would be "COM meets BOS".And on that, I think I can see where Doby is coming from, but I need some clarifications from Doby's post - especially in regards to the use of COM and BoS.
I'm confused about your meaning of vertical movement and COM/BOS relationship, where COM = center of mass, i.e. hips and BOS is base of support i.e. outside boot.
In this montage of a release, we see a few things:
Frame 1 - leg long: maximum COM to BOS distance, hip lowest to the ground.
Frame 3 - leg short: minimum COM to BOS distance, hip highest from the ground.
Also - no absolute vertical movement of the hips, as they do not get higher from sea level than their previous position, they keep going down the hill. I was on a fairly steep black run.
If I had no relative vertical movement of the hips between frame 1 and 3 (relative to the snow, which is falling away), my a$$ would be on my heels in frame 3, like François put it - a probably quite uncomfortable situation. In my mind, the only reason for the minimal relative apparent vertical movement, in this case, is to avoid this situation, making it necessary at high edge angles, regardless of the release.
But then you say:
I think you mean the "bob" as in varying distance between COM and BOS on the vertical plane, i.e. the hip-to-ground distance?
That sounds like the hips should not vary the distance to the snow... and we could not ski with high edge angles... as the hips should stay at some fixed level to the ground, necessarily above the knees, so limiting angles. Is that what you meant?
Does that mean that you view the vertical plane movement of the hips, when "up" as a push and when "down" as an effortful squat?
In frame 3 above, my legs do not support my body, as they're almost disconnected from the snow. There is no effort there. The legs are mostly relaxed. All I did between frames 1 and 3 was to relax and flex the outside leg, allowing the hips to travel down the slope. If I hadn't done that, it would stay long and jam my hips upwards, in a somewhat brutal up-and-over.
This description of "the small squat exercise" makes me again think low angles, where a skier exaggerating flexion would be more like standing up and sitting down rather than needing to release the skis at higher edge angles, allowing the hips to travel down the slope, like in the photomontage.
In that context, I would be inclined to agree with you somewhat... however, you mention 30 mph as the discriminator where "flexing to release" might result in unnecessary up/down motion... while even in WC slalom, a good speed would be 23 mph... while in the photomontage above, I was well below that, so say 15mph, without any unnecessary up/down - as far as I can see.
... it would be great if you could please clarify all those? I am liking the differentiation between vertical movement and lateral movement... I think I strongly agree that it's a good focus, but it seems so directly connected to the angles the skier is at: the bigger the angles, the more lateral the extension and flexion...
cheers
p.s. Here's the Adelboden slalom course:
slope data and results: so 622m / 60 sec which comes to 23.2 mph average speed. Does my math sound right?
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Razie, I appreciate your interest in the subject. We, of course, do not need to agree by any means. That would be both insufferably boring and rendering a conversation about what we “would” both agree is “really” happening somewhat meaningless. An analysis of flexion is not something that is easily supplemented with stills. Stills do not show the derivation of flexion as does video and, interestingly enough, the absence of which, is the crux of my point. However, when I look at your montage, I believe you are correct that tipping is not causing flexion, otherwise, we wouldn’t see the CoM drop in the middle photo. Instead, we would see a CoM that remained at the same height throughout the turn. Your montage literally shows the hip dropping if we think the skis are remaining at the same level. However, because those photos are “positionally reoriented” we cannot discern anything significant from them regarding the derivative of flexion.
Basically, what I am talking about is how someone who learns flex to release. When they do, the way they release their CoM typically results in unwanted vertical drop between the CoM and BoS. This vertical displacement of the CoM/BoS literally strips the CoM/BoS of any capacity for the horizontal displacement we want. The perfect example is the video you included above with the guy in the black pants and blue jacket. He is a good skier with a lot of balance and mobility but he is not staying low through transition. He is very athletic but is being “too” athletic for his needs. He should be using his teenage mutant ninja mobility to transfer the CoM directly through the turn rather than the pronounced “up and over” we see. That up movement is very costly in quickness but, most importantly, the ability of the skier to create maximum horizontal displacement between the CoM and BoS. Once this kid finds the skeletal linkage required to pass his CoM directly through the turn, “vertically flat CoM” we will see his feet reach much further out than they do now as he would be free to exploit maximum upper/lower separation. I believe this is what the top SL skiers are doing and is the very element we want to transfer to technical freeskiing in a manner that gives the recreational skier more power, more precision and less fatigue in their skiing.
I think you are starting to get the idea in regards to your “Tipping with ankle flexing” video but, not quite. You write: “pulling back the inside ski and flexing the leg allows flexing the ankle, which in turn allows good tipping from the ankles.” It is true that a high degree of forward ankle flexion allows the ankle to tip more underneath the body, but this isn’t really what is happening in regards to “ankle tipping”. A skier who uses their ankles to tip the ski is performing lateral flexion of the ankle and is “bowing” both ankles to the inside of the turn and against the boot shell and thus giving direct steering capacity to the ankle that is directly on top of the ski and against the boot rather than far away at the remote location of the hip that has no direct leverage compared to the ankle. So, the “ankle flexion” that is responsible for tipping the ski, is not fore/aft ankle flexion, it is lateral flexion of the ankle. It is this lateral flexion of the ankle that I use to initiate and transmit my DIRT to directly to the ski which in turn initiates the anticipatory, simultaneous and sequential DIRT that radiates up the chain. This is the only flexion of the body that is invisible to the outside observer and is probably the biggest reason it has not flourished in teaching environments. While I can’t see a person’s ankles flexing laterally in their boots, I can certainly see the output it produces and its lack there of. Speaking of output/input, for me ankle tipping is the input and leg flexion is the output. We need to time the input, not the output. Timing the output is chronologically backwards and kinetically upside down from a systemic standpoint.
In the video itself, the last three slow mo turns: turn #1 has drop & pop, turn #2 has drop & pop, but #3? The ground pushes your legs up underneath you. Nice! You can’t really consider or look at the ground to see it. It is like you have to view the skier as if they are floating in space to see whether the CoM is moving towards the BoS or the BoS is moving towards the CoM. “Hip-to-ground” could be considered somewhere close but is NOT the same as “CoM-to-BoS” as the ground close to the hip and the ground close to the BoS are two different places. From what I have seen on YouTube, you have made a lot of progress in your skiing over the last three seasons. Keep in mind that it is “how” you are progressing now will be the biggest determining factor regarding how far you will progress going forward. As soon as you make the full jump from hip centric centric to ankle centric skiing you will clear the way for more dev.
As a side note, this concept of ankle tipping brings about the notion of “ankle stacking” (sagittal plane of the individual foot) and how both ankles need to achieve a neutral “centered” stacking position at transition so that both ankles can flex equally to both sides. For me, this is the specific reason to have well aligned boots.
Basically, what I am talking about is how someone who learns flex to release. When they do, the way they release their CoM typically results in unwanted vertical drop between the CoM and BoS. This vertical displacement of the CoM/BoS literally strips the CoM/BoS of any capacity for the horizontal displacement we want. The perfect example is the video you included above with the guy in the black pants and blue jacket. He is a good skier with a lot of balance and mobility but he is not staying low through transition. He is very athletic but is being “too” athletic for his needs. He should be using his teenage mutant ninja mobility to transfer the CoM directly through the turn rather than the pronounced “up and over” we see. That up movement is very costly in quickness but, most importantly, the ability of the skier to create maximum horizontal displacement between the CoM and BoS. Once this kid finds the skeletal linkage required to pass his CoM directly through the turn, “vertically flat CoM” we will see his feet reach much further out than they do now as he would be free to exploit maximum upper/lower separation. I believe this is what the top SL skiers are doing and is the very element we want to transfer to technical freeskiing in a manner that gives the recreational skier more power, more precision and less fatigue in their skiing.
I think you are starting to get the idea in regards to your “Tipping with ankle flexing” video but, not quite. You write: “pulling back the inside ski and flexing the leg allows flexing the ankle, which in turn allows good tipping from the ankles.” It is true that a high degree of forward ankle flexion allows the ankle to tip more underneath the body, but this isn’t really what is happening in regards to “ankle tipping”. A skier who uses their ankles to tip the ski is performing lateral flexion of the ankle and is “bowing” both ankles to the inside of the turn and against the boot shell and thus giving direct steering capacity to the ankle that is directly on top of the ski and against the boot rather than far away at the remote location of the hip that has no direct leverage compared to the ankle. So, the “ankle flexion” that is responsible for tipping the ski, is not fore/aft ankle flexion, it is lateral flexion of the ankle. It is this lateral flexion of the ankle that I use to initiate and transmit my DIRT to directly to the ski which in turn initiates the anticipatory, simultaneous and sequential DIRT that radiates up the chain. This is the only flexion of the body that is invisible to the outside observer and is probably the biggest reason it has not flourished in teaching environments. While I can’t see a person’s ankles flexing laterally in their boots, I can certainly see the output it produces and its lack there of. Speaking of output/input, for me ankle tipping is the input and leg flexion is the output. We need to time the input, not the output. Timing the output is chronologically backwards and kinetically upside down from a systemic standpoint.
In the video itself, the last three slow mo turns: turn #1 has drop & pop, turn #2 has drop & pop, but #3? The ground pushes your legs up underneath you. Nice! You can’t really consider or look at the ground to see it. It is like you have to view the skier as if they are floating in space to see whether the CoM is moving towards the BoS or the BoS is moving towards the CoM. “Hip-to-ground” could be considered somewhere close but is NOT the same as “CoM-to-BoS” as the ground close to the hip and the ground close to the BoS are two different places. From what I have seen on YouTube, you have made a lot of progress in your skiing over the last three seasons. Keep in mind that it is “how” you are progressing now will be the biggest determining factor regarding how far you will progress going forward. As soon as you make the full jump from hip centric centric to ankle centric skiing you will clear the way for more dev.
As a side note, this concept of ankle tipping brings about the notion of “ankle stacking” (sagittal plane of the individual foot) and how both ankles need to achieve a neutral “centered” stacking position at transition so that both ankles can flex equally to both sides. For me, this is the specific reason to have well aligned boots.
Yes ... take your sewing machine and lay it on its side.
This thread has run its course and we are closing it. Thank you to all who participated.
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