Staying Low in transition

[john petersen]

well put, Doby Man, well put....

I do wonder if any routes of development are ever complete but rather, could they become strong enough to build off of for more complex movement patterns? (I dont like to throw anything out...especially the fun stuff!)

Could you explain further, "kinetic bypass" ?

"by eliminates the use of the feet and ankles", do you mean as passive movements transcend active, more (semi or fully) conscious movements? I may understand this if thats the case...

I like to think that we flex and extend at the same time....more whole body....and its in that combination....that blend, that we control the engagement of our edges. both sets.
Ill have to do some more research regarding kinetic chains....but I may be thinking about movement patterns in that regard....as they become more efficient we can build off them. (I am curious about the order that things happen kinetically, now...so that will probably become a tangent for me!)

What do you consider high edge angles to be the product of...in an ideal world.....? (your opinion kinda goes against one of PSIA's fundamentals, but Im not questioning you, just looking for definition)

As awareness increases and becomes more second nature, and as skills develop and patterns become efficient, it seems to me to be more about movement "maintenance" as opposed to movement "work". As we begin to own certain movement patterns we can continue the journey to further more complicated movement patterns......beginner to intermediate, intermediate to advanced, advanced to expert. Once we own enough advanced movement patterns, more challenging terrain and conditions become available to us to venture into.

Im not sure I quite understand how ankle input alone controls high edge angles.....there must be advanced knowledge and use of inclination and angulation for it to work that way...but if this is an ideal situation...then I think I get it.

Ive heard that Race Coaches tend to look at ski performance, Ski Instructors tend to look at body performance, and Big mountain folks tend to look at terrain.....wondering if that has any significance with mental approach here......

continuing further, but my curiosity about kinetic chains is getting the better of me!

JP

 

[4ster]

If I want to absorb some of the built up force at turn completion,
If I want to harness some of the energy that force creates,
If I want to tip my skis onto high edge angles at the top of the turn,
If I want to apply pressure to the ski early & regulate it through outside leg extension,
If I want to manipulate the shape of the arc before forces begin to work against me,
In a word, if I want to proactively control my destiny!...
... It probably makes sense to be flexed/low at transition.

Does it make sense to do this all the time? Probably not. Half the time?, more? Maybe.
So much depends on the dynamics of the turn (i.e. speed, pitch, turn radius, snow texture, etc.). Try making 30, 40 or 50 full on retraction turns on either a smooth moderate groomer, a bump run or even a series of wedge turns on the beginner hill. Your quads will be on FIRE !

In my experience, most recreational skiers are stiff & static. These skiers would all benefit by developing their range of motion & yes, most could flex more!
With that said, it is not for everyone all the time but it is & always has been an important part of being a complete skier.

 

[markojp]

If I want to absorb some of the built up force at turn completion,
If I want to harness some of the energy that force creates,
If I want to tip my skis onto high edge angles at the top of the turn,
If I want to apply pressure to the ski early & regulate it through outside leg extension,
If I want to manipulate the shape of the arc before forces begin to work against me,
In a word, if I want to proactively control my destiny!...
... It probably makes sense to be flexed/low at transition.

Does it make sense to do this all the time? Probably not. Half the time?, more? Maybe.
So much depends on the dynamics of the turn (i.e. speed, pitch, turn radius, snow texture, etc.). Try making 30, 40 or 50 full on retraction turns on either a smooth moderate groomer, a bump run or even a series of wedge turns on the beginner hill. Your quads will be on FIRE !

In my experience, most recreational skiers are stiff & static. These skiers would all benefit by developing their range of motion & yes, most could flex more!
With that said, it is not for everyone all the time but it is & always has been an important part of being a complete skier.

^^^ this ^^^^

 

[oldschoolskier]

My feeling is the low and flexed have the same intention. Don't forget transition is a point in which the skis are not really edging but move from one edge to another.

I think of this as a getting zero weight (downforce) on the skis so that they can be brought across this zone, the terms low or flex (or any other discriptor in the book) assist you in doing this as part of an instruction or description.

Some understand a concept better one way than the other, though the intent is the same.

My 2 cents.

 

[razie]

If I want to absorb some of the built up force at turn completion,
If I want to harness some of the energy that force creates,
If I want to tip my skis onto high edge angles at the top of the turn,
If I want to apply pressure to the ski early & regulate it through outside leg extension,
If I want to manipulate the shape of the arc before forces begin to work against me,
In a word, if I want to proactively control my destiny!...
... It probably makes sense to be flexed/low at transition.

Does it make sense to do this all the time? Probably not. Half the time?, more? Maybe.
So much depends on the dynamics of the turn (i.e. speed, pitch, turn radius, snow texture, etc.). Try making 30, 40 or 50 full on retraction turns on either a smooth moderate groomer, a bump run or even a series of wedge turns on the beginner hill. Your quads will be on FIRE !

In my experience, most recreational skiers are stiff & static. These skiers would all benefit by developing their range of motion & yes, most could flex more!
With that said, it is not for everyone all the time but it is & always has been an important part of being a complete skier.
View attachment 28509

@4ster nails it in many ways.

It is all about carving the top of the turn. Without flexing at the/to end the previous turn, one cannot really carve the top of next with any performance (cruising green runs excepted maybe), requiring some pivoting and/or redirection.

You have different levels of flexion, from minimal flexion like this:

and a little more, like this, but still on the relaxed side of things:


Note that they flex minimally and carve like a 5-8m corridor... and then you have a 3m corridor like this:


BTW, the first and second videos are good to watch - the latest releases from those two channels. You seem to be right that flexion is getting a lot of attention these days... also, the CSIA and CSCF rewrote their manuals I think last season and one big thing they agree on now is "using all joints" and that specifically means ankles and knees (got a new level in each of those last year, having thus to read the new thing x 2 .

And then, on a totally different level, you have this:


In terms of getting tired... it's an interesting aspect.

Flexing allows a much better next turn, more angles and more performance, so your upper body better be strong to cope with it. As to flexing itself - there is a bit of confusion between flexing and retraction. Doing retraction turns on a green, which is good training, will get you tired, because the flexion is not matched to the turn/slope... if that makes sense.

It's like seating on a chair: if you just relax your legs, you will drop on the seat, but without your legs getting tired. If you sit down slowly, your legs will get tired, although the result is the same: you sitting down.

Matching the timing of flexion to the turn and slope is expert skiing and once you start to get it, with some modicum workout to be in shape, it'll be great!

p.s. Let's say you take the other extreme, of no flexion. The issue is how smooth you manage to make the end of the turn. If you hit the edge of the ski with a long leg and a stiff body, it's like a brick hitting a wall: lots of effort. If you keep the legs long but absorb the shock in the upper body, it will create more stress on the spine and hips. Not sure that makes for a better experience...

You can smooth out the end of the turn by letting it go a lot across the hill, like the first skier, without much flexion or impact, or go shorter across the hill, where you flex like the second/third etc. Many ways to skin this thing, but if you're looking for performance... the answer is here somewhere

 

[Doby Man]

Thank you JP. “kinetic bypass” = skipping the feet in the kinetic chain by using hip flexion to roll the skis over rather than the ankle. I have heard a number of different kinetic chain explanations. Some people think of the kinetic chain strictly in terms of movement or motion the significance of which cites that a new motor pattern is going to force changes to the motor patterns above and below in the kinetic chain. The way I see the kinetic path is as the pathway of neurological impulse that travels through the body as we fire off a turn. This way muscular contractions that do not result in movement or motion are included in the concept. I see the path of “impulse” as starting from the feet and traveling through the legs, the midsection, neck/shoulder carriage and down the arms for the pole touch and something that transpires starting at the beginning of turn phase one through the end of turn phase three. Some impulses are sequential and some are simultaneous but all reside on a specific path through the body. If you subtract all the nerves and their corresponding muscles not used in a turn, what is left is the kinetic chain. If you focus on it, you can actually feel this pathway being traveled within each turn through the contractions these nerve impulses initiate. The better the skier, the more specific the pathway as well as there being a selection of slightly different pathways utilized for different terrain and turn intent scenarios such as bumps, powder, steeps as well as for small, medium and large radius groomer turns.

Regarding the angulation/inclination a product of tipping comment: For me, angulation and inclination are there to support what the feet are doing. With the ankle, I choose the same tipping angle for both skis and with which the right angulation, inclination, flexion and separation will allow to happen. With the way I think about things, using the whole of the upper body during flexion to regulate edge control is like using a blunt object vs. a surgical instrument in regards to the ankles ability of articulation and its immediate juxtaposition to the ski. A better analogy may be abruptly moving passengers around inside a plane to make it turn compared to simply using the control stick in the cockpit. It has been said that the ankle is not a strong enough entity to control the turn as compared to the bigger muscles and joints. However, when you consider the location of the ankle directly on top of the ski and that it has the boot to leverage against, I find no lack of power. The DIRT that is chosen at the ankle will be the DIRT that is used by the inclination, angulation, rotation and flexion. While many of our upper body movements happen simultaneously with movements in the feet, that is because they are telegraphing or anticipating what the foot is going to do. Movement integration can be seen as the DIRT that travels up the kinetic pathway and is what produces the state of flow. When the flow of DIRT contains gaps of miss timed or miss sequenced movements the aesthetic flow that we can actually see is compromised and not seamless.

A comment above said something about matching the timing of the flexion to the slope and terrain. Does this also mean we are consciously matching the timing of all our movement patterns and hammering it in with repetition when we get it right? I’m not a mental gymnast (trust me) so that isn’t going to work for me. Is this really possible anyway? … or do we already rely on the kinetic path to time everything together so all the timing we have to think about is initiating all that DIRT at one spot and sending it on up? Like I mentioned earlier, for me rolling the ankles to steer the ski under a low remaining CoM and a loose stack automates both the DIRT and physical effort of flexion. When you do it this way, it is not powered by muscle contraction and you will get the right amount of flexion for each turn without having to think about it and thus automatically rationing its DIRT according to the turn at hand.

While this thread does a good job highlighting important benefits of flexion, I feel how we flex as important. You can think of flexion in two ways: Top-down which is the creation of tipping using flexion - or - bottom-up which is the creation of flexion using tipping. When flexion is created with the upper body, it is a top-down sequence and rendering the analogy “dropping or lowering with some resistance into a chair” and it is that upper body dropping movement that needs to be replenished with an upward movement or vertical pop of the upper body in order to be continued such as what we see in both the Italian and blue jacket/black pants videos in the above post. This unnecessary vertical motion of the CoM is also tiring and can be laborious and disruptive to a smooth, well metered carving effort. However, when flexion is created from the bottom-up from ski tipping such as in the Ballou and Hirscher videos above, it is a “rising” flexion that is automatically rationed to the need at hand, increases effortlessness as an “automated” function and, more importantly, comes without that unnecessary upward motion/vertical pop. If you can’t see it, first look for the “pop” and trace it back to its origin which is the dropping motion of top-down flexion. This also illustrates how bottom-up flexion allows the skier to stay low in transition with which the vertical pop from top-down flexion will disturb and hamper a stay low objective. Top down flexion is how the skier uses the body to turn the skis and bottom-up flexion is how the skier uses the skis to turn the body.

As I see things for technical freeskiing rather than racing, both are more functional and aesthetically pleasing benefits of bottom-up flexion compared to top-down. Many skiers perform a blend of both some with one more active than the other. The skiers in all four videos above are very good skiers demonstrating excellent balance, control, mobility and high edge angles. How those high edge angles are obtained is where I see a major split. Of course a lot is style choice and is based on the mechanics available to an individual skier. If you are a racer however, bottom-up flexion is going to be faster gate to gate than top-down in most SL circumstances. Adding vertical motion to pump through powder or to supplement edge contact on the steeps is where I like to use it.

 

[4ster]

Flexing allows a much better next turn, more angles and more performance, so your upper body better be strong to cope with it. As to flexing itself - there is a bit of confusion between flexing and retraction. Doing retraction turns on a green, which is good training, will get you tired, because the flexion is not matched to the turn/slope... if that makes sense.

Well said, thanks.
Does this bring us back to the original question of the advantages to recreational skiers? I suppose the answer lies in how much effort they are willing to put into it. Does it require better physical conditioning, more athleticism? Are they willing to refine the gross "top down" movements to the more subtle "bottom up" movements @Doby Man suggests in the above post?

BTW, that Hirscher video is one of my favorites. Especially around the 1 minute mark.

 

[john petersen]

Doby Man, thanks for the clarifications.......

I can infer that kinetic awareness and the complexity of the skills we are able to bring to the table will begin to allow these breaks. Sure we talk about the ankles alot to help communicate movement awareness, origins of movements, to help illustrate points, ect......but its a global movement pattern of our body's segments working together in relation to our equipment that is an ideal goal to reach.....(as often as possible.)......
This does go back to levels of accomplishment and how we apply this stuff to our lesson content.

My evolving blending of skills could be one pathway to kinetic chain awareness for me personally. I think one would allow the other. Perhaps it could happen the other way around as well....or be a continuing combination of experiences and awareness.
I do think, though, that certain efficient global movement patterns must be in place for successful kinetic breaks (in a chain) to take place.

bottom line, development (or abilities or talents or dumb luck ) has a lot to do with success here.

I do agree that using large parts of the body to accomplish small adjustments in balance or rotational movements or edging finesse is like using a hammer to put in a thumb tack, but awareness has to start somewhere. (this may be why we see gross movements at lower and intermediate levels.)

Top down/bottom up flexion is a nice distinction, DM.....I like the examples you site as well... nicely done.
Both are tactical, both can be used, but one is usually more efficient and allows for smoother flow down the hill....

thanks

JP

 

[François Pugh]

I like to stay low, but with enough flexion left to be able to absorb what needs to, or might need to be, absorbed (sometimes the terrain can catch me off guard in flat light). That way I have more "extension" ability in the bank so to speak, and more ability to pressure my edges with more force for a longer time and achieve a higher level of skiing performance, which is more fun for me.

 

[razie]

It's great that there is a lot of agreement that flexing is good for recreational skiers - although I am not sold on the upper body driven flexion... aka bending the knees with the upper body - I'm not sure I follow the concept.

But, I do agree with the way John puts it, that knowledge and ability are enablers: even if focusing on the DIRT of the ankles is the essence of good skiing, triggering all other required movements automatically (?) that really sounds like a guided discovery... and Jonathan B. has a great piece on that: "guided discovery is a lot more effective when people know what they're trying to discover".

In other words, while just trying to roll the ankles, one won't really discover good skiing... or how the kinetic chain works. It is a lot more effective to explain how the kinetic chain works, when guiding people there... and best with some experiential learning for instance: stand up tall and try to move the knees side to side by rolling the ankles. Nope. Now sit down on the chair and try to move the knees side to side by rolling the ankles. Yup! Why? You got it: flexion enables tipping. That's how the kinetic chain works - it's not all about muscle activation, but also how segments are joined together, enablers, stacking etc.

It's good though - I can see it as a good cue for an advanced skier, one who already "discovered it".


Another thing Jonathan can add here is that the popping up/down of the COM is not related to how flexion is created, but generally how the flexion is matched (as in Intensity and Timing) to the turn shape and the slope. The smooth skiing makes it maybe harder to see, but if we slow it down a bit, the up/down of the hips should be obvious in his video, as well, below:


The Hirscher video (yes @4ster - also my all-time favorite video) is one of a god and the only one skiing something steep enough with that turn shape, for the base of the stick below to descend faster than the "rising"... resulting in the somewhat missing apparent up/down, matching the flexion to the turn shape and slope.

In these cases, the up/down motion of the COM has more to do with our general inability to escape the laws of physics and it is referred to as "the stick problem". No time to draw a nice graph, but this will do:

think hip to snow on the left, hip to snow on the right... guess went up in the middle, at about knee height... or higher in case of less flexion?

But to go back to the OP's question, the Italian video does actually touch on a very important benefit of flexing: popping up tall gets you back and we should avoid it. It should be interesting to ponder the relationship between flexing, low in transition and being forward, for a while.

cheers

 

[Mike King]

Benefits to the recreational skier of low in the transition? Much has been said of the benefits of ski performance in carving situations. But the ability to appropriately flex and extend, resulting in the ability to shape the top and bottom of the turn, will be greatly felt in skiing bumps. It is my opinion that there is almost nothing that will have a greater impact on your bump skiing than learning to initiate a turn from a low (flexed) position...

This has turned my bump skiing from a 2 dimensional problem (the bump is to be avoided) to a 3 dimensional one (flex and extend, where)?

Mike

 

[4ster]

Benefits to the recreational skier of low in the transition? Much has been said of the benefits of ski performance in carving situations. But the ability to appropriately flex and extend, resulting in the ability to shape the top and bottom of the turn, will be greatly felt in skiing bumps. It is my opinion that there is almost nothing that will have a greater impact on your bump skiing than learning to initiate a turn from a low (flexed) position...

This has turned my bump skiing from a 2 dimensional problem (the bump is to be avoided) to a 3 dimensional one (flex and extend, where)?

Mike

Totally agree & bumps are the obvious situation where this movement pattern can & always has been a game changer.
Now, picture BB's virtual bump & the possibilities become endless.

 

[jack97]

So my question would be "why would a recreational skier not want to flex to release." Is there a more beneficial alternative?

Just for reference, here are the videos that prompted the discussion.

For bumps. I can't think of a beneficial alternative. As for how one flex in the transition, there's an alternative to the Alltrack vid which allows a more direct line.

 

[razie]

Not sure we should keep this thread going or get another one, or maybe we sliced it and diced it enough, but there is another detail we did not spend much time on. This is not usually one that's very obvious, although different posts touched on it: the difference between just flexing a little and flexing through transition and being low in transition.

Flexing is a big subject and this particular aspect is a difference in the DIRT or the timing of flexion. The difference between just flexing a given "amount" at the end of the turn and then maintaining a somewhat flexed stance through transition as opposed to flexing to release and continuing to flex through transition. Or, in other words: flexing at the end vs. to end the turn.

I figured now is a good time to bring it up, as we shifted attention to bumps and comparing the 4 skiers I had with the bump skiers above - the difference in timing shows up. It also shows up between the first 2 skiers and the last 2 skiers below, the racers.

@4ster nails it in many ways.

It is all about carving the top of the turn. Without flexing at the/to end the previous turn, one cannot really carve the top of next with any performance (cruising green runs excepted maybe), requiring some pivoting and/or redirection.

You have different levels of flexion, from minimal flexion like this:

and a little more, like this, but still on the relaxed side of things:


Note that they flex minimally and carve like a 5-8m corridor... and then you have a 3m corridor like this:


And then, on a totally different level, you have this:

It is a very subtle difference and if you did not see it, look at this roller here (not the still shot, but hit play and watch the first roller):


You can see how the skier starts flexing before the crest, keeps flexing while the skis flatten and extends only on the other side, after skis are flat.

The result tends to be a lower transition, because of the continued flexing action.

You will notice the same movement pattern, in slow motion, with the two racers above (the kid and the god) while the first two skiers take a more relaxed approach to flexing.

I'm curious what your opinion and experience is on the difference this makes, if any.

cheers

 

[PTskier]

It's not about being low or high. It is about relaxing the legs to release the edges and end the turn, then begin the next turn. One is low only when (a) absorbing a bump, or (b) when they are low to handle the forces of a tight turn as we see Hirscher doing--laying the skis over to carve the tight turn and handle the forces. The clue is to bend the outside knee (actually relax both knees) to release the turn. This is a retraction turn even if the body rises. Straightening the outside knee to end the turn is an extension turn. The only reason to make extension turns is to jump over something or sometimes for the exhilaration of a brief flight.

In the Alltracks video he makes a very important statement..."allow the legs to extend"...to start the next turn. The legs aren't pushed away. The skis are on edge and they ski away, pull away, from the body. The legs are allowed to lengthen. And, in the video, he's exaggerating how low to get to clearly show what he wants to demonstrate.

He says that the goal is to absorb the rollers completely with the legs. Yes, and...the actual goal is consistent pressure of the skis against the snow. If the pressure is consistent, we have the opportunity for consistent control of the interaction of the skis on the snow. If the pressure is not consistent, control is more difficult.

If the retraction turns are automatic for the skier, fewer surprises throw the skier around. You're skiing along in some fresh snow and your skis hit a hidden bump. You've made enough thousand retraction turns that your body automatically, without taking the time to think about it, retracts and absorbs the bump, and you ski along having fun.

 

[Doby Man]

I agree with the above. The proximity of the CoM and BoS, a fundamental input, matters greatly compared to the proximity of the CoM to the ground, an incidental output at best.

If your CoM were the center of the universe, by simply tipping your skis, you would be moving the Earth below your feet to cause flexion. When you are skiing, your com IS the center of “your” universe. That is POWER. Please don't let this information get into the wrong hands.

 

[john petersen]

you guys are touching on yet another related topic here.....passive movements and active movements. passive flexion or extension is hinted at when you use the word "let" as in let the leg get long....active movements are hinted at when you say "pull", "push", "extend" as in jetting and avalement.

The blend (DIRT) is based on intent and terrain. Also, as mentioned above, it is based on your varied experiences and reactions. (conscious and sub conscious)

I have noticed different levels of "low through transition" in stills and videos presented here. I think a major factor to the amount used are due to situation. The use of these skills seems to be used as needed...at least when there is depth of experience.

JP

 

[4ster]

Not sure we should keep this thread going or get another one, or maybe we sliced it and diced it enough, but there is another detail we did not spend much time on.

Maybe @Loki1 will check back in with his thoughts before we shut it down.

 

[aliebe]

I'm sorry that I don't have anything to contribute, but I wanted to thank everyone for their tips, thoughts and video links. Great stuff and very timely for me. Looking to take that next step from a good beginner to good. Can't wait to get out there and give it a try.

 

[4ster]

I'm sorry that I don't have anything to contribute, but I wanted to thank everyone for their tips, thoughts and video links. Great stuff and very timely for me. Looking to take that next step from a good beginner to good. Can't wait to get out there and give it a try.

Luv the enthusiasm !

Remember that reading about & watching videos are only prep work to make the best of your "on snow" time. Having the guidance of a qualified coach/instructor will insure that the steps you take are tailored to your particular needs & hopefully lead you down no dark alley's.

Here's some good stuff for any level: