Staying Low in transition

[Loki1]

There has been some focus latley on staying low through transition or flexing through transition. I was hoping to have a discussion on this subject, as I believe it is very misunderstood and misapplied. So here is my question: What benifits if any do recreational skiers get from being low through transition? And/or flexing through transition.
PS I understand the beneiftis from a racing or timed event type scenario so no need to go into them. Just simply what are the benifits for a normall person ythat may challenge the status quo!

 

[jzmtl]

My experience is more time on edge thus more time controlling your speed/direction. Makes little or no difference on good snow but definitely helps on icy 30 degree slopes.

 

[dj61]

In my understanding it comes down to this: if you are not flexed, you will not be able to get your skis on their edges.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I like asking the question this way, Loki.

overview...
Extend-to-release : lengthen the short, old inside leg (uphill) to start the new turn (delay flexing the downhill leg) = getting tall through transition
Flex-to-release : shorten the long, old outside leg (downhill) to start the new turn (delay extending the uphill leg) = get short through transition
Do both at same time : lengthen and shorten them as above, at same time, bicycle pedal, to start the new turn = you'll get tall, but not as tall nor for as long as extend-to-release

 

[markojp]

In my understanding it comes down to this: if you are not flexed, you will not be able to get your skis on their edges.

If this were the case, figure 11's would be the only option for 95% of the skiing public.

 

[markojp]

IMHO, retraction is about pressure management and timing/DIRT. Great skill to have, use, understand, but of late it seems to be taking the shape of 'final form' visual outcomes rather than another important tool in the bigger kit.

 

[Uke]

Benefits of flexing through the transition:

Quicker edge change,

Earlier engagement of the new outside edge.

Less disruption of the path of the com (better flow).

Less internal work required (less muscular effort needed).

More efficient use of the ski to direct the com.

These are the first few things that pop into my head. I'm sure that there are more but for my money the above is more than enough to justify the use of a flexed transition for the average skier.

Uke

 

[razie]

I don't see the difference between recreational skier and racer as clear cut. I personally like to draw a fuzzy line around "performance skiing". All racers of course, but pros as well as anyone interested in carving blacks for instance etc would fall in the "performance" category and should definitely be interested in being able to ski like "that".

I don't see a need to be "low in transition" except in relation to the performance that one is looking to get from the next turn: the more performance, the lower one tends to be. Performance generally defined as a function of carving, turn shape and steepness: on this scale of performance skiing, those at the lower end (beginners/intermediate) would get the same benefits from flexing as racers do, but proportional with their level of performance.

So, I prefer to look at it not as aiming to "be low" but just aiming to be flexing at the end of the turn... as much as needed or functional... so there is "flexing" and there is "deep flexing".

Like @markojp noted, without getting too deep into biomechanics, we can put the skis on edge when the legs are long in transition, but that would be by dragging them on edge from the hips, i.e. with the upper body, leading to a certain type of skiing, mostly upper-body driven (with hip dumping or with extra inclination etc).

To allow us to ski with the lower body, i.e. roll the ankles on edge and all that good stuff, some flexion must exist in the legs - specifically at the beginning of the turn. Otherwise we can't actually ski with the feet, as there isn't enough leverage in the feet to tip the entire body on edge...

Imagine walking downhill without flexing (without bending the knees at all) - it is possible to some extent, by overusing the hips and putting more strain on the back whatnot, but... why would one choose to walk or run like that... or ski like that? How fast can you run downhill without deep flexing of the "outside" leg ? The most efficient way to run, one that we all discover instinctively, is to flex the forward leg and allow the hips to travel almost straight forward.

Same function with skiing, in my mind: skiing without flexion at the end of the turn is the same as running without flexion. It's also the same as skiing moguls without flexion over the bump: works somewhat if the bumps are shallow and far apart (i.e. low-performance skiing) and it doesn't work as well with bigger more frequent bumps (i.e. performance skiing).

Even a small flex out of the turn makes a big difference. In bumps or groomed alike. And the more carved and the shorter the turn shape and the steeper the hill, the more we need to flex.

that's my story and I'm sticking with it

 

[PTskier]

Uke and razie make very good points.

Look at the whole picture. Absorbing the additional forces (centrifugal force + gravity) in the lower half of the turn by flexing down puts stress on the knees and quads. It's just hard work. Then you need to make a relatively slow, hard work extension and turn the other way. Handling the additional forces by increasing the angles of the legs to the snow while keeping the outside leg nearly straight puts less stress on the knees & quads. Then simply relaxing and rolling the skis to their other edges is efficient and effective and quick. There are times when all of us need the quicker turns...steep narrow chutes, in trees, on a steep icy pitch where we need to get to the edges quickly, some kid did a face plant in front of us.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Loki asks: "What benifits if any do recreational skiers get from being low through transition? And/or flexing through transition."

I've been thinking about this all day; just did a 9-hour drive home. I guess the answer depends on what recreational skiers want. I'm guessing more fun might be the primary motivator. That might mean several things.

The initiation strategy I'm thinking of, that keeps you low, is to flex the downhill leg. This releases the old outside ski. The body will cross over the skis, causing them to tip onto new edges, which will start them turning downhill. The turn has started simply by flexing one leg. Lengthen uphill leg to reach out to the side as the skis turn.

1. longer days with less fatigue
--- Instead of extending the uphill leg, which takes effort and tires muscles, a low transition involves relaxing the downhill leg and letting gravity do the work. It's easier on the body, turn after turn.

2. being able to ski previously off-putting conditions and terrain (dense heavy snow, and ice)
--- Intermediate skiers who extend to initiate a turn often pivot the skis at the top of the turn, skiing a z-shaped line down the mountain. They also sometimes use upper body rotation (rotary push-off) to drag their skis around at the top of the turn. Both of these ways of rushing the skis through the top half of the turn are easy when one extends the uphill leg to flatten the skis. Neither of these initiation strategies works very well in heavy, dense snow. Flexing the downhill leg instead gets the skier on new edges before the skis point down the hill; the skis will turn the skier, there will be a top to the turn, and dense snow will be a possibility. Skiing that snow this way is not draining, as it is when one extends up out of the snow with every turn.
--- Skiing hard groomed snow can be done with good grip that is dependable (low transitions can provide this grip). Most intermediates can't get this grip with their extension initiations because they pair the extension with a pivot, then edge and brace against the hard surface. This usually produces a diagonal slide down the hill, with the skier hanging on waiting for the friction to slow things down. Flexing allows the skis to turn the skier with good grip through a turn that is "C" shaped. Grip is established before the skis point down the fall line, and it can be held onto through the whole turn.

3. satisfaction at learning something new
--- Flexing to release makes rushing through the top of the turn with a pivot almost impossible. Instead, the skis tip onto new edges while still pointing across the hill in the old direction. There will be a top to the turn; all kinds of good options open up for the skier seeking a higher skill level when this happens.

4. bragging rights
--- Skiing conditions that friends don't know how to ski qualifies, right?

 

[Doby Man]

So many ways to look at things. For me, the “flexing to release” concept doesn’t hold water as it “works” in the wrong direction. It suggests to me that flexing is an input from which the output is releasing the skis edge. I don’t think we direct our skis with our bodies but rather direct our bodies with our skis which, in turn, are directed by our feet. To initiate flexing as a muscular input would be a very tiring way to release the ski or to ski at all for that matter. For me, flexion is an output powered by the input of tipping the ski. When I tip my skis while remaining low in transition, my knees are pushed up underneath vertically flexible/supple knees and hips which, for me, automates the flexion process. As an output from tipping, you may find flexion far more effortless. Tipping literally powers flexion. So, you can think of it as flexing your entire body with the twitch of your ankle. Looking at things through the kinetic pathway: the DIRT you prescribe for your ankle is the DIRT that is extended to your flexion. Same goes for the tipping of the ski being responsible for the feet being pulled/extended away from the CoM in an effortless way - powered by tipping. To me, this is what it means to ski from the feet and letting the ski do all the work. As for releasing the edge, that is simply a product of, again, tipping the ski. Staying low in transition is not flexion. Flexion is a product of staying low in transition while tipping the ski.

 

[Fishbowl]

Flexing to release received a lot of play on Epic, especially in the "Intermediate Zone". In fact, it is fair to say that it was promoted as the way that most recreational skiers should ski, and was even touted as the way an intermediate gets to expert levels.

So my question would be "why would a recreational skier not want to flex to release." Is there a more beneficial alternative?

Just for reference, here are the videos that prompted the discussion.

 

[markojp]

Sure... lower edge angle open parallel (brushed, not railroad tracked) turns on lower angle groomed terrain... these take very little energy and input and allow the skier to extract max mileage especially at weekend warrior fitness levels. Then there's flex/relax to release vs. full on retraction turns... then stivots, up and overs, etc... flex, retraction, stivots, and extension all get used in racing depending on the tactical need/event. In the end and oft repeated, high end skiing is athletic. It requires levels of fitness that are often well beyond the reach of a 5-10 day a season intermediate skier making a daylong session of high performance higher edge angle flex to release skiing improbable. Not impossible though.

 

[razie]

... at weekend warrior fitness levels...

Realistically, that is my current fitness level...

 

[markojp]

Realistically, that is my current fitness level...

Chuckle.... ... You're one of those proving the 'not impossible'.

 

[Wilhelmson]

As a recreational skier I want to go fast and improve my technique. Cruising down a groomer is enjoyable now and then but exhilaration comes from pushing new limits. Better form will hopefully help as I get older an achier (already happening). Also want to set a good example for my kids and keep up with them since they are already close to my level.

 

[MikeS]

One of the big reasons to keep low in transition and utilize a retraction move to initiate your edge change? It's fun. If you do a retraction turn correctly, the sensation of your legs snapping around beneath you lightning fast as your CoM hurtles forward into the belly of the next turn is just awesome.

Yes, it's better conservation of momentum, and requires less muscle energy in some cases, and it gets you on edge quicker. All excellent technical reasons. But for an advanced recreational skier, it just feels good, and is fun as hell. Which is kinda the point of recreational skiing in the first place.

 

[T-Square]

A recreational skier doesn't absolutely need to stay low, however, learning it builds versatility. That increases the range of options you have available while skiing that can be brought to bear when needed. Besides that, I love the "slinky" feeling it gives me skiing.

 

[john petersen]

the benefits are mentioned above but Ill add:

adverbs I like here:

flexing
extending
countering
softening
skiing
reaching

there are more....but, this is one of those topics that may have different levels of application for different scenarios. I believe the movements should be the same, or rather the ideal movements.

"getting low in transition" kinda implies a single position...."low".

Low is something we may perceive probably with the relationship of our brain bucket to the surface of what we are sliding on. If we are countered, we may perceive our torso being involved as well. body awareness on many levels.

Loki, I think your use of "flexing through transition" is a better mindset for us. It hints at the bigger picture. I like to think in these terms as it implies more constant movement as we ski. Flexing and extending happen all the time, in varying amounts...(DIRT) this is very important, IMHO.

flexing and extending should be happening at all levels. wedge turns on the learning center through high performance parallel turns on steeps. the amount and intensity....(read smooth and metered intensity) will vary with situation.

Its certainly a whole body thing where we are taking several movement patterns and deciding on which ones to use and how to use them.

I like the fact that we mentioned two things here: Doby man nails the mindset of the ski centered turn where the ski design is more center stage and allows movement patterns to happen as a result of using the ski well, and the body centered turn, the mindset nailed by liquidfeet, where the body is more responsible for making the skis behave the way we want them to. In both scenarios, (and another "vs" thread, perhaps) flexion and extension are playing a major role. (To me, one mindset precedes the other in terms of development, but I wont say which here. )

I believe you can dial in what you need. When you can do that on most terrain, you will mostly own many efficient movement patterns and be on your way to greater understanding. The key for me, anyway, is to flex and extend all the time and only dial in what is needed.

Have I mentioned that life is a skill blend?


JP

PS, Edit; In the above vids, we see a movement pattern introduced to help certain transitional functions on certain terrain...NOT a way to ski all the time. hopefully the "dogma bark" is worse than the "dogma bite".........

PPS...very bad pun, sorry!

 

[Doby Man]

I like the fact that we mentioned two things here: Doby man nails the mindset of the ski centered turn where the ski design is more center stage and allows movement patterns to happen as a result of using the ski well, and the body centered turn, the mindset nailed by liquidfeet, where the body is more responsible for making the skis behave the way we want them to. In both scenarios, (and another "vs" thread, perhaps) flexion and extension are playing a major role. (To me, one mindset precedes the other in terms of development, but I wont say which here. )

I agree that both approaches are effective but even more so in different stages of dev. My experience was that I had to learn all the upper, mid and some lower body movements and fundamentals of alpine ski technique well before I was free to let my ankles take over. If one is able to use flexion to release the CoM in a lateral direction to initiate edge roll, that is definitely savvy. But it may also indicate that this rout of development is complete. And, by doing so, by order of kinetic bypass one eliminates the use of the feet and ankles which is an aspect that will open up an even further rout of dev and avoiding the expert plateau. Also, manipulating the CoM with flexion to control your edges could be considered kinetically backwards for those in that technical camp. For me, high edge angles are not the product of angulation and inclination. Angulation and inclination are products of ski tipping that is powered by ankle input alone. When coaches analyse racers and other competitors, their best/primary resource is looking at what the skis are doing. You can look great in the upper/mid body but if your skis aren’t performing, that doesn’t really matter.