Learning on two feet

[BornToSki683]

Could be that a particular technical model might have reason to dogmatize against certain movements, no doubt, though I think if there is not a clear and justifiable reason then I say that technical model is flawed or inadequately described.

In this case I think it might be one of those things where if ski instructors are lifting up their inside ski a lot, it can be confusing for students, good or bad, for high end dynamic skiing I don’t have a problem with it, but if a student watches it and then starts doing goofy stuff, then could be a potential issue. I can see why the psia technical model might frown on it for no other reason. The current psia technical model is really not very well defined so these kinds of memes tend to float around with different theories about it. In fact I don’t believe you will find anywhere in the psia technical manual that both skis need to be engaged in the snow at all or most times. No such requirement or justification for that is made anywhere, officially. But there are dozens of common memes such as this one floating around the ranks and amongst various clinicians, examiners, etc..sometimes they are things that people just think don’t look good. This is one of them, right up there with fear of narrow stances and other things like that. Where your hands should be, etc. imho it’s more about a certain undocumented image a lot of people seem to think is the visual to shoot for, with minimal consideration for the actual functional implications. In my view, that is not a technical model at all, it’s a lack of one.

 

[Doby Man]

@BornToSki683 We already know what the developmental "cue based" implications are for picking up the new inside ski. What would be your "functional implications" for picking up the ski, any ski, at any time?

 

[BornToSki683]

It’s not so much that one NEEDS to pick up the ski it’s more that in some cases the ski will simply come off the snow during dynamic skiing and it’s of no consequence.

particularly with outside ski dominance and using flex to release it actually takes a very concerted effort to keep it on the snow.

Regarding your question about “any ski any time”, I believe I have identified already some specific red flag moments where a picked up ski may indicate something else is not working as well as it could, so it is clearly not without limits.

 

[karlo]

wouldn't help balance on skis

standing mostly on the outside ski is better for skiers

Most of the time outside ski,

what the skier being a bi-pedal humanoid must do to manage those forces and not fall down on steeper terrain at speed.

lack of context when is comes to identifying the primary balance force at play, the speed we are going and the phase of the turn we are in

@JESinstr, the OP is in the context of carving a turn on groomers or bumps, short to long turns, slow to high speed, at any part of the turn. I am asking, why not learn with more equal balance on two feet.

So, a lot of these responses are, it is better to have more pressure on the outside ski. That is better skiing. Absolutely. For purposes of racing, it is far better. For the purposes of rebound and energy from ski, it is better. But, I am asking from a learning point of view, why not start with even, or more even, pressure on two skis?

1. We know that it is possible to arc turns on the inside ski. If you don't do it, watch Marcus Caston doing it in Return of the Turn Episode 2, not by intent, but because he had to.

2. Learning with even pressure, will give the learner confidence that, in a pinch, which learners often encounter, they can rely on turning on their inside ski. All this stuff about paralyzing fear, reaching a learning plateau. It seems to me that can be addressed by the learner's confidence enhanced, through confidence in that inside foot and ski. Confidence brings concentration (thanks again to @LiquidFeet for pointing me to Inner Skiing by Timothy Gallwey and Robert Kriegel.

3. Learning to ski has a lot to do with being able to feel our feet (thanks to Inner Skiing to remind me of that). We aren't going to be feeling our feet (oops, outside foot) if we lack confidence and cannot concentrate. And, feel your feet on the floor. Aren't you feeling them better if you are not trying to balance on one foot?

4. The benefit of outside pressure is much more appreciated when one can compare that to something else, equal pressure on two skis.

5. To get even pressure on both skis, we have to pull our inside foot back. Isn't that good?

So, yes, I agree that pressure on the outside ski is better skiing. But, from the learner's perspective, from the perspective of what they feel, what confidence they can gain from being able to fall back to the inside foot and still carve a turn, why not? Oh, one more thing.

There is always this talk about scaling back the difficulty of terrain to develop one's abilities, then ramp it up. Right there, if learning is using equal pressure, the learning will have to stay on easier terrain until he or she gets it.

 

[CalG]

I know I am going to get blow-back on this. But, in some PM with @LiquidFeet, the thought came to mind, how about teaching and learning how to ski on two feet? By that, I mean even weighting, or pressure, on both feet and both skis, well into Advanced level.

Skiing with weight on the outside ski is most desirable. Lot's of energy can be gotten from pressuring (I learned when it was "weighting", not "pressuring") that one ski, then releasing it. It seems a bit un-natural from a learning point of view, though that's what we do when we walk, alternate weight from foot to foot. However, before we learned to walk, we learned to stand on both feet, not one. We can also learn to make turns standing on, and pressuring, both skis, not one.

Sure, with the old straight skis, there was no option. If an intermediate wanted to make a turn, the downhill (oops, outside) ski had to be weighted (oops, pressured). With the new skis, I see no reason not to have even weight on both skis, EXCEPT that stiff boots will inhibit that, because stiff boots inhibit skiers from flexing the ankle and pulling the inside foot back. Boot flex can be addressed. Thinking out of the box, just keep the AT boots in walk mode. Or, if in ski mode, don't strap the power strap.

So, what's the benefit of learning to ski on both skis for a good long while? One develops balance that relies on both feet/skis. Once that is developed, one can move on and experiment with and develop alternating pressure from outside ski to inside ski. That builds agility, as well as balance. With agility and balance, comes the wherewithal for much, much more.

I've heard of parallel from the start (or some name like that). But, I think that is also depending on weighting the outside ski.
With the new equipment that is now available, is there also a new paradigm in teaching and learning how to ski? So, those who think this is flat-out wrong, why? Those who think that there can be some merit, what progressions and drills would be used to implement this model, not model of skiing, model of learning?

This is NOT in the context of learning to competitive skiing. This is in the context of a progression to learn how to ski.

Skiing is very similar to walking the deck of a pitching vessel at sea. The surface Constantly moving beneath. How do sailors walk?

One foot at a time in a "rolling gait". Much as Tai Chi masters might.

Do what you will, .....

bottomless powder is NOT like a rolling ship, It is the perfect uniform medium. 'Not a hard surface, and so takes a different approach.

 

[john petersen]

The main reason we think of teaching folks efficient movements from the learning center to black diamonds is a smooth transition to more challenging terrain/features. There is a skill blend that is to be mastered and equal weighting of both skis is a valid concept but only in the context of a much bigger picture and as a tactic or situational skill.

It is not an efficient way to ski once you begin turning. Forces build as skill, confidence and terrain do and we have to be proactive and open minded for future needs.

Future needs require a blending of 2 footed, 1 footed, inside weighted, outside weighted, jetting and avalement, and so on and so on AS NEEDED to blend into our skiing.

to create the angles necessary between body segments on steeper terrain to maintain edge and turnshape control and to move smoothly from turn to turn...its all about outside ski to outside ski.

But I DO have as much fun teaching kids who are able to do 180s, 360s, backwards skiing, sideslip skiing, tucking...you name the exercise or drill or skill and it will eventually require the use of both feet in a seamless blend of all the skills...including equal pressure management in certain situations.

Jp

 

[karlo]

Skiing is very similar to walking the deck of a pitching vessel at sea

Thanks for pointing that out. It is not at all my intent to be argumentative, but I don't see the analogy. I see being on two feet when skiing akin to being at foredeck, alternately flexing and extending each leg with each roll and pitch to absorb motion, but having both feet planted on the deck. Even hip angulation is analogous.

main reason we think of teaching folks efficient movements from the learning center to black diamonds is a smooth transition to more challenging terrain/features.

Yes, if the skier learned the use of two feet or inside-only ski on gentler terrain, it will become tiresome to use that on more challenging terrain. And, I can see that mastering those things on gentler terrain would be tedious and boring and frustrating if the skier is biting at the bit to join friends further up. Wait until it is really needed, which may be when a skier hits a learning plateau???

 

[Rod9301]

@JESinstr, the OP is in the context of carving a turn on groomers or bumps, short to long turns, slow to high speed, at any part of the turn. I am asking, why not learn with more equal balance on two feet.

So, a lot of these responses are, it is better to have more pressure on the outside ski. That is better skiing. Absolutely. For purposes of racing, it is far better. For the purposes of rebound and energy from ski, it is better. But, I am asking from a learning point of view, why not start with even, or more even, pressure on two skis?

1. We know that it is possible to arc turns on the inside ski. If you don't do it, watch Marcus Caston doing it in Return of the Turn Episode 2, not by intent, but because he had to.

2. Learning with even pressure, will give the learner confidence that, in a pinch, which learners often encounter, they can rely on turning on their inside ski. All this stuff about paralyzing fear, reaching a learning plateau. It seems to me that can be addressed by the learner's confidence enhanced, through confidence in that inside foot and ski. Confidence brings concentration (thanks again to @LiquidFeet for pointing me to Inner Skiing by Timothy Gallwey and Robert Kriegel.

3. Learning to ski has a lot to do with being able to feel our feet (thanks to Inner Skiing to remind me of that). We aren't going to be feeling our feet (oops, outside foot) if we lack confidence and cannot concentrate. And, feel your feet on the floor. Aren't you feeling them better if you are not trying to balance on one foot?

4. The benefit of outside pressure is much more appreciated when one can compare that to something else, equal pressure on two skis.

5. To get even pressure on both skis, we have to pull our inside foot back. Isn't that good?

So, yes, I agree that pressure on the outside ski is better skiing. But, from the learner's perspective, from the perspective of what they feel, what confidence they can gain from being able to fall back to the inside foot and still carve a turn, why not? Oh, one more thing.

There is always this talk about scaling back the difficulty of terrain to develop one's abilities, then ramp it up. Right there, if learning is using equal pressure, the learning will have to stay on easier terrain until he or she gets it.

Learning to ski with equal weight will cause the weight to be on the inside ski and it will delay learning how to angulate and shift weight to outside ski

But more importantly, why learn something that has to be unlearned in the future?

 

[CalG]

Thanks for pointing that out. It is not at all my intent to be argumentative, but I don't see the analogy. I see being on two feet when skiing akin to being at foredeck, alternately flexing and extending each leg with each roll and pitch to absorb motion, but having both feet planted on the deck. Even hip angulation is analogous.



Yes, if the skier learned the use of two feet or inside-only ski on gentler terrain, it will become tiresome to use that on more challenging terrain. And, I can see that mastering those things on gentler terrain would be tedious and boring and frustrating if the skier is biting at the bit to join friends further up. Wait until it is really needed, which may be when a skier hits a learning plateau???

Skiing is not "standing"

Move forward! That is where the enjoyment is.

 

[François Pugh]

Whether lifting the inside ski off the ground is good, bad or indifferent depends on your technical model, your intent and your circumstance.

At least one technical model has it as a teaching aid, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

If your technical model is to ski with the least amount of energy lost due to friction, while making turns, then the you would try and carve clean lines with both skis. Having your inside ski off the snow and not de-cambered in the belly of the turn (apex), is not helpful in this respect. To just decamber the ski does require a little weight on it, not that much, but enough to be significant. If you need that weight on the outside ski too in order to press that ski into the snow and not loose grip, then lifting it is what you must do. If you need to lift it to move your centre of mass over just a bit to balance along the inside edge of the left ski, then poor planning on your part not having your inside ski at the right point (farther inside the turn) in the first place, but still in that circumstance, acceptable.

If you are doing cross over turns (up and over) then maybe you didn't account for the amount of lift you would be getting. Maybe you wanted (subconsciously) to get some extra height in the potential energy bank, so you could come down harder on the ne

If your foot is coming up right after transition, before the apex, then that's another story for another day.

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr, the OP is in the context of carving a turn on groomers or bumps, short to long turns, slow to high speed, at any part of the turn. I am asking, why not learn with more equal balance on two feet..

Karlo. As I stated earlier, IMO this thread should be titled "learning WITH two feet" Balance is only one of the key skills needed. You have rotary, edging and pressure skills to deal with as well. For instance, If you are talking carving, rotary becomes less of an issue while edging and pressure management becomes more of an issue as the carving state evolves. If I am cruising at a good clip on a nice blue groomer creating medium to large radius turns, I am capable of generating the carving process without much (if any) rotary well before I reach the fall line. In the bumps, that's a completely different scenario requiring substantial rotary. I believe strongly in the concept of using two feet but that concept is not exclusive to the skill of balance. That is why we need to consider all the variables and conditions when voicing opinions. Skiing is dynamic.

 

[razie]

If you are talking carving, rotary becomes less of an issue

(thread drift warning in effect)

Why?

As I understand it, rotary "skills" include not just steering/pivoting, but also counteraction/separation/coiling/anticipation... whichever way it is created?

 

[JESinstr]

(thread drift warning in effect)

Why?

As I understand it, rotary "skills" include not just steering/pivoting, but also counteraction/separation/coiling/anticipation... whichever way it is created?

Raz , No thread drift here. I was talking about the feet and their ability to rotate once the ski is edged. Should have said. " If you are talking carving, FOOT ROTATION becomes less of an issue"

Thanks for the catch.

 

[Zentune]

Well consider that, from *one* frame of reference, the foot IS rotating in an edge locked carve, but in a direction that is counter to what one typically considers to be foot rotation/steering, though it is still techinally foot rotation, or leg rotation relative to the foot if you prefer.

You can’t have counteraction without foot tipping/countersteering

zenny