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Learning on two feet

JESinstr

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What makes this potentially good topic non productive is the total (and continuing IMO) lack of context when is comes to identifying the primary balance force at play, the speed we are going and the phase of the turn we are in. Also it should be "learning to ski WITH two feet.... not "ON"
 

Doby Man

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I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?

The question I would ask mdf is: Why are you picking up your ski? In the expert context the the OP designates, the better the skier we become, the more that all our movements have purpose. Purposeful skiing is as much about movement reduction as it is about movement. If you do not know why a movement pattern exists in your skiing, the next thing to do is to “screen” it with purpose and asking the “why”. If you can’t find a reason, throw it overboard. Daylight under the ski is only a flaw under the expert context of using a two ski carving platform technique. Many experts still use picking the old outside/new inside ski up off the snow as a movement cue for their CoM to continue directly down the hill (OLF, ILE, LTE/phantom, etc.). In a freeskiing context, the eventual completion of refinement of this CoM management would no longer require the movement cue.

To become expert skiers we must learn to balance the entirety of the turn on the outside ski. A refined version of that is the ability to always keep about 20% weight with a touch of “hooking leverage” on the inside ski so that it bends and carves in “unison” with the weight dominant outside ski. For a skier who does not have good outside ski balance, trying to carve the inside ski with a modicum of pressure results in them falling too much to the inside. A good skier can play with that inside ski enough for meaningful contribution to the carving effort while consistently maintaining weight dominance to the outside ski. A two ski carving platform with weighted release, transfer and re-engagement that produces a “full set” of tracks and increases the body’s tactile relationship with the snow with a more “sophisticated” (more dynamic/less effort) carving platform that receives more feedback and provides more output than only one ski can provide. Though, it also provides a more complex set of forces to manage. It is 4x4 carving vs. 4x2 carving. This is why I believe the best carvers, racers, leave full sets of two very defined tracks that show no signs of skidding nor any disengagement with the snow (when freeskiing). The two tracks will look exactly the same except for a deeper, “darker” outside track that clearly shows the pressure differential. For skiers who ski from the feet AND utilize a tipping centric technique, “tipping for two” is the way to go. “Abrupt” weight shifts of 100% transfer turn into smoother and more “progressive” weight shifts that look more like this (exaggerated & generalized):

Progressive Weight Transfer:

Start of Left Turn Cycle:
Phase 1 - 60/40
Phase 1.5 - 70/30
Phase 2 - 80/20
Phase 2.5 - 70/30
Phase 3 - 60/40
Transition - 50/50 (fully weighted, no vertical)

Start of Right Turn Cycle:
Phase 1 - 40/60
Phase 1.5 - 30/70
Phase 2 - 20/80
Phase 2.5 - 30/70
Phase 3 - 40/60
Transition - 50/50 (fully weighted, no vertical)

The above is an example of inside/outside pressure control that, sequentially, is learned (for those who choose) after mastery of 100% outside ski balance (outlined below) and, likely, after one can balance a full turn on only the inside ski as well. Just like stance width, these values are not direct inputs but are instead outputs that are based on the culmination of a full set of refined fundamentals.

What the abrupt 100% transfer looks like (exaggerated & generalized):

Abrupt/full Weight Transfer:

Start of Left Turn Cycle:
Phase 1 - 100/0
Phase 2 - 100/0
Phase 3 - 100/0
Trans. - 0/0 (typically fully unweighted, using vertical motion)

Start of Right Turn Cycle:
Phase 1 - 0/100
Phase 2 - 0/100
Phase 3 - 0/100
Trans. - 0/0 (typically fully unweighted, using vertical motion)

There are many happenstance and tactical reasons for 100% weight shifts in chaos infused race courses, steeps, etc. For my technique, 100% weight shift is only a tactical move, not a technical one. Often a WC skier performs an “invisible” white pass turn that cannot be determined simply because the unweighted, or much less weighted outside ski is not off the ground. However, a trained eye can see the “CoM’s line shortcut” effects that an invisible white pass tun has on the CoM. Ultimately and ideally, in non-tactical freeski situations, we should never need to lift a ski off the ground unless there is a specific purpose as with all our movements. A movement cue is fine but should eventually not be needed to produce the cue’s desired results. All cues are developmental tools that “should” be temporary because they are not a function of the intuitive state we strive for in our skiing. Movement cues are they way we transition a cognitive focus through the semi-intuitive state and eventually, hopefully, to the intuitive state. If a movement cue remains in the intuitive state, it can be considered as unnecessary but, as long as it continues to do the trick, who cares? To many, lifting the new inside ski looks technically sophisticated even though it is not a “top tier” outcome.
 

Nancy Hummel

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I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?

Many people pick up the inside ski to get it out of the way, usually because that ski was not completely flattened at the start of the turn.
If you flatten the old outside ski at the start of the turn, you will be in a position to tip or turn both skis together.
 
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Nancy Hummel

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Moving from one foot to the other while sliding is fundamental to skiing. Many beginners are terrified of picking up one ski if they are sliding downhill, if even for a second. They are unable to get themselves to step through their turns. Shuffling can even be difficult for some people. This fear needs to be purged. They need to limber up, and move while sliding, or that rigidity will plague their skiing for a long time. These folk will have difficulty letting go of the old turn because fearing the loss of solid control that comes with release will control their movements. Skiers need to learn to ski from one outside foot to the other outside foot.

Picking up one ski is scary for a beginner. Teaching beginners balancing movements -flexion/extension along with angulatory movements allows pressure to go to the outside ski and allows flow from one turn to the next.
 

Wilhelmson

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When skiing with only one ski are we always on the "outside" ski?
 

razie

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I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?
It's not normally a flaw. It's possible that the said instructor doesn't understand good skiing :eek:

He would not be alone... I encountered the opposite situation. One racer marked at beginner level for the ability to "weight and carve the outside ski" during his L1 coach exam, reason given being "snow spray from under the inside ski visible sometimes".

The simple physics of the situation is that at his angles, touching the snow with the inside ski is unavoidable and it takes considerable skill to still weight the outside ski more and not wipeout...

15871429_10153977718206268_6664440380551481269_n.jpg


Enough to shake my confidence in "professionals" doesn't it?

... now though, depending on the turn shape, at the apex may be a little late... for racers, it would likely be late to still have the outside ski off the snow... also, it normally doesn't need to be off the snow at that point, but either way, having the inside ski unweighted at the apex is normally a sign of good balance on the outside ski, so in my view you'd get bonus points...

;)
 
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JESinstr

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Picking up one ski is scary for a beginner. Teaching beginners balancing movements -flexion/extension along with angulatory movements allows pressure to go to the outside ski and allows flow from one turn to the next.

Right on, Right on, Right on!

Regarding beginners in a wedge configuration...

In the recent past I have been seeing instructors telling students to project (roll) the inside knee into the new turn in order to get them to flatten and stop the "Blocking" action that the wedge inherently brings to the party. I have concerns with this approach.

As you state, it is really about flexing, extending and angulation . When one is traveling at only 2 to 4 mph on relatively flat terrain, we are definitely using gravity as our source of balance and IMO that balance needs to be focused on controlling the outside ski. Rather than trying to get the student to move one way while the inside knee has to move the other (Pat your head and rub your belly at the same time syndrome), I use flexing of the inside leg as the means to move the COM to the outside. At the same time flexion of the inside flattens that ski.
 

mdf

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To clarify the context, the inside ski was just barely off the ground -- the instructor had to stop the video to show it, I literally could not see it at normal playback speed.
I've experimented with fractional weight transfer, and find it much easier to keep some weight on both skis on my slalom skis than my big skis. I'm still not sure why that is -- shorter radius maybe?

I agree trying and failing to get a particular balance would be an issue, but the task was just "wait until the videographer waves and then make some good turns."
 
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karlo

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To clarify the context, the inside ski was just barely off the ground -- the instructor had to stop the video to show it, I literally could not see it at normal playback speed.
I've experimented with fractional weight transfer, and find it much easier to keep some weight on both skis on my slalom skis than my big skis. I'm still not sure why that is -- shorter radius maybe?

I agree trying and failing to get a particular balance would be an issue, but the task was just "wait until the videographer waves and then make some good turns."


I am totally befuddled why the instructor would focus on that. I would think he would want to focus on some basic instability, if there was one, that manifested itself in the gap. But, if you're skiing great and the gap is there, so what?
 

JESinstr

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I am totally befuddled why the instructor would focus on that. I would think he would want to focus on some basic instability, if there was one, that manifested itself in the gap. But, if you're skiing great and the gap is there, so what?

I am going to bring back this video by JF. Picking up the inside ski in order to obtain balance control on the inside edge of the outside ski is just a radical form of flexion. But the inside ski plays an important role in a turn, especially as the turn progresses. So to pick it up and disengage at the beginning requires that you re-engage it as some point. This is is clearly a flexion skill issue. Having subtle control of your inside leg is an advanced skill.

 

mdf

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I am going to bring back this video by JF. Picking up the inside ski in order to obtain balance control on the inside edge of the outside ski is just a radical form of flexion. But the inside ski plays an important role in a turn, especially as the turn progresses. So to pick it up and disengage at the beginning requires that you re-engage it as some point. This is is clearly a flexion skill issue. Having subtle control of your inside leg is an advanced skill.


I guess I can buy that, especially since I did not know it was off the ground.
 

BornToSki683

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Mdf,

It seems to be becoming a popular meme recently to look for the inside ski off the snow and flag it as a problem in certain circles. I am in complete disagreement with that meme. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. We can view countless photos of world class skiers with their inside ski decambered and often lifted off the snow.

Anyone using an aggressive flex to release pattern will likely have the downhill new inside ski coming off the snow briefly and that is absolutely NOT an issue, it can even be a good training device to exaggerate it!

The good ol’ Lift-the-inside-ski-to-make-a-stem-Christie move is something often seen in learning skiers and it does indiciate some better learning can take place to stop that, but then so is the stem Christie a problem to begin with. But the key here is to look to see if there is really a wedge entry that is being stepped out of. If the skier lifts the downhill ski and tips it prior to or simultaneously with the uphill new outside ski, then it doesn’t matter in the least that it was lifted, it’s totally fine, even a good habit notwithstanding you may face torment from well intentioned clinicians. On the other hand, if the uphill new outside ski goes to the BTE before the downhill ski goes to its LTE, and the skier is then forced to lift it and even twist it in order to catch up to what the outside ski is doing, then it’s a valid red flag, but note that lifting the ski isn’t the actual problem, it’s only a symptom in this case. The real problem is that the downhill ski isn’t being released off its BTE soon enough or the uphill BTE is being rushed to, probably with early rotary too.

I’d have to see video of the situation to know for sure what you were being called out in, but I personally do think inside ski off the snow is way too often being flagged as a problem when it’s really not. The real issue to look for is wedge entry or not. If there is no wedge entry happening in concert with a lifted ski then I see zero problem with it. Fixing a wedge entry is a lot more involved then telling a skier their inside ski is lifted, FWIW.
 

JESinstr

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I guess I can buy that, especially since I did not know it was off the ground.
Lifting your ski off the ground is not a sin :). If fact, it is how you can get yourself through some tight situations. We all have "Habits" we don't know about ;)
 

PTskier

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"what's the benefit of learning to ski on both skis for a good long while?"
None. Never teach anything that will have to be un-learned. Within the first two hours of teaching first timers, I had them moving their body over the outside ski and forward and to the outside. "Let your zipper pull dangle over the logo on the front of the outside ski." (Of course, we never move as far as we think we move.) I also never taught a wedge christie. Within three hours first timers would go from wedge turns, through wedge christie by themselves, to the simplest parallel turns. This brief wedge christie that they didn't even know they were doing wasn't done enough to "learn" it, i.e., to develop it as a habit to be later broken. Or later haunt their progression to become a good skier.

Don't think about weighting or pressuring a ski. Think about lightening the other ski. The concepts seem identical, but they are not. We do not want a push effort to weight or pressure the outside ski. We are more effective if we lighten the inside ski. I've done both. I got better when I lightened the inside and gave up weighting the outside.

An instructor clinician taught us the terrible technique of inside ski steering after first slightly lifting the inside ski. I nodded, demonstrated it for him, then intentionally forgot it.

"I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?"
If the inside ski was lightened where light showed only under the tail or the cambered center, great. The flaw was the instructor's training. If the whole ski or just the tip was lifted, see the problems LF listed above.
 

RuleMiHa

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I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?
Isn't this exactly why we've been beating a dead horse in the Technical Model thread. If the instructor is using a technical model that doesn't include lifting the inside ski then it would be a flaw. If he were using a technical model that did include lifting the inside ski it wouldn't be. It seems to be about choice of technical model, not an actual right or wrong thing to do type of issue.
 
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karlo

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I'm still not sure why that is

But the inside ski plays an important role in a turn, especially as the turn progresses. So to pick it up and disengage at the beginning requires that you re-engage it as some point.

After reading what JES wrote and watching the JF video, I think an analogy would be a tennis player moving the feet rapidly, to retain reactionary quickness. With the inside ski down, and slightly pressured, one can be quick and nimble?
 

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