Learning on two feet

[karlo]

I know I am going to get blow-back on this. But, in some PM with @LiquidFeet, the thought came to mind, how about teaching and learning how to ski on two feet? By that, I mean even weighting, or pressure, on both feet and both skis, well into Advanced level.

Skiing with weight on the outside ski is most desirable. Lot's of energy can be gotten from pressuring (I learned when it was "weighting", not "pressuring") that one ski, then releasing it. It seems a bit un-natural from a learning point of view, though that's what we do when we walk, alternate weight from foot to foot. However, before we learned to walk, we learned to stand on both feet, not one. We can also learn to make turns standing on, and pressuring, both skis, not one.

Sure, with the old straight skis, there was no option. If an intermediate wanted to make a turn, the downhill (oops, outside) ski had to be weighted (oops, pressured). With the new skis, I see no reason not to have even weight on both skis, EXCEPT that stiff boots will inhibit that, because stiff boots inhibit skiers from flexing the ankle and pulling the inside foot back. Boot flex can be addressed. Thinking out of the box, just keep the AT boots in walk mode. Or, if in ski mode, don't strap the power strap.

So, what's the benefit of learning to ski on both skis for a good long while? One develops balance that relies on both feet/skis. Once that is developed, one can move on and experiment with and develop alternating pressure from outside ski to inside ski. That builds agility, as well as balance. With agility and balance, comes the wherewithal for much, much more.

I've heard of parallel from the start (or some name like that). But, I think that is also depending on weighting the outside ski.
With the new equipment that is now available, is there also a new paradigm in teaching and learning how to ski? So, those who think this is flat-out wrong, why? Those who think that there can be some merit, what progressions and drills would be used to implement this model, not model of skiing, model of learning?

This is NOT in the context of learning to competitive skiing. This is in the context of a progression to learn how to ski.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

We stand on two feet. We walk always balancing on one. /thread

 

[karlo]

Yes, but I addressed that analogy already . What about the skiing? Seriously, why not? Or, if to be done, how?

 

[RuleMiHa]

Balance is independent of what you are balancing on (body wise). Someone who is elderly with poor balance can sit in a chair a challenge their balance and improve. Balancing on two feet is inherently less challenging than one, so by "developing balance" on two feet you are inherently inhibiting it's development.

Good balance development programs will take you through balance challenges which sequentially increase the difficulty of the stance. They'll have you do things in a wide two foot stance, then a narrow two foot, then two feet, one directly in front of the other (wide separation & narrow separation), then one foot. Also, it works better if you loose your balance somewhat in the progressions, because that gives the inner ear (semi-circular canals) the data they need to improve.

I can't comment on the teaching aspect, but it definitely wouldn't help balance on skis.

 

[T-Square]

@karlo, here’s one of the best resources I’ve found for aspiring and advanced instructors. It’s the PSIA-Central Division Level 1 Certification Study Guide.

http://www.psia-c.org/download/certification-forms/alpine-certification/level1_studyGuide.pdf

Don’t let the 2006 date or Level 1 steer you away. This book is excellent and I provide it to the instructors that I work with. I review it every year. It provides for three pathways to parallel; Wedge Progression, Direct to Parallel Progression, and Hybird Progression. I normally use a Hybrid Progression when teaching. What you learn from this book will serve you well in your teaching from Never Evers to Advanced skiers.

 

[François Pugh]

Have you ever watched folks racing their VWs (I forget which model) around a track. Invariably the back inside wheel comes off the ground. Turn forces and inertia result in more weight being on the outside ski (or wheel) when turning with a lot of force.

 

[razie]

I've heard of parallel from the start (or some name like that).

A practicing L1... and an L2 aspiree might have to know this ?

@karlo, here’s one of the best resources I’ve found for aspiring and advanced instructors. It’s the PSIA-Central Division Level 1 Certification Study Guide.

http://www.psia-c.org/download/certification-forms/alpine-certification/level1_studyGuide.pdf

Don’t let the 2006 date or Level 1 steer you away. This book is excellent and I provide it to the instructors that I work with. I review it every year. It provides for three pathways to parallel; Wedge Progression, Direct to Parallel Progression, and Hybird Progression. I normally use a Hybrid Progression when teaching. What you learn from this book will serve you well in your teaching from Never Evers to Advanced skiers.

---

I know some here propose things like actively carving the inside ski, but there are some things we don't need to re-examine, like why standing up is better for humans (in general) and standing mostly on the outside ski is better for skiers (in general).

 

[HDSkiing]

Maybe I’m missing something here but don’t we already teach to ski on both skis? Pressure control fore/aft, from ski to ski and on both skis as we adjust our COM over the base of support as we move through a turn, transition or maybe just a straight tuck down the slope.

The pressure can be taken to an extreme laterally as in an outside ski only turn (lifting the inside ski off the snow) to a White Pass turn (lifting the outside ski while turning/carving with the inside ski). Most upper level skiers are somewhere between those two extremes depending on the phase of the turn, the terrain and many other variables, as they adjust their stance and balance, in short they ski on two skis.

Learning to race when Nixon was president I do remember the days when it was all about the downhill ski (till the Maher brothers came along). Contemporary skiing, at least as I understand it, starting with Never-Evers and up involves skiing on both skis, true whether you are teaching a wedge Christy or going direct to parallel.

 

[Rod9301]

Most of the time outside ski, powder more even.

 

[karlo]

the PSIA-Central Division Level 1 Certification Study Guide.

http://www.psia-c.org/download/certification-forms/alpine-certification/level1_studyGuide.pdf

Ok, ok, T-Square's is bigger than mine. This is what I have (had),

https://www.psia-e.org/download/ed/Level-I-Workbook-v2.pdf

Only 29 pages, his is 59.

OK! I like Hybrid. Parallel makes me nervous.

pressure can be taken to an extreme laterally as in an outside ski only turn (lifting the inside ski off the snow) to a White Pass turn (lifting the outside ski while turning/carving with the inside ski). Most upper level skiers are somewhere between those two extremes depending on

Having read and compared Wedge, Hybrid, Parallel, yes, no way learning with even weighting of the feet can work, especially for beginner and intermediate. So much to do to be sure student is controlling speed and is safe.

Edit:

standing mostly on the outside ski is better for skiers

Of course. Stepping achieves what I was thinking of

 

[T-Square]

@karlo, I just steal what works. If you have the proper terrain, direct to parallel can be a blast to teach. Especially with the right student; think skater, ice or in line.

 

[john petersen]

eventually you will come across how forces affect the skier and what the skier being a bi-pedal humanoid must do to manage those forces and not fall down on steeper terrain at speed. The Skiers Manifesto is an intense read and "ya gotta be in the mood" like reading Sartre or Pirsig, but wow does it describe some great examples of bio mechanics!

LeMasters book is also a great read.

managing forces even at the beginner level, if done right, can be explained and nurtured so that those same skills can be used the same way, but in larger amounts on steeper terrain later in the learning cycle. (perhaps much later )



JP

 

[mdf]

I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?

 

[Rod9301]

I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?

It's not

 

[David Chaus]

I have students discover for themselves what happens when they are evenly weighted, vs weight more-or-less on one ski or the other. I do this on easy terrain.

When they’re evenly weighted, they tend to go straight down the fall line.
When their weight is more on the right, they turn left.
When their weight is more on left, they turn to the right.

They learn it better that way, than me just telling them what and why.

 

[karlo]

When they’re evenly weighted, they tend to go straight down the fall line.
When their weight is more on the right, they turn left.

Yeah! Another one would be, what do they need to do to turn right on the right ski. So, I've been playing with the wiggle (I didn't even know it was called a wiggle until, in another post, someone called it that when commenting on a video). As I'm wiggling, I play with how much pressure on either ski, from all on one, to all on other, and everything in between. Because of the forces, if I'm 50/50, it feels like I'm standing. If I go to one foot or the other, it just feels like I'm standing on one foot. The aforementioned Steps, I feel that too. It's a cool feeling.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I think that the concept of "pressuring" can lead to undesired movements. If you tell someone to "pressure" their ski, many people will equate that with pushing on the ski. Do we want people to push on their skis? I say no.

With the emphasis on "pressure on the outside ski" by PSIA, it is no surprise that I hear instructors talking to their students about this all the time. The questions I have are "why" and "how". Is it something that instructors emphasize without really knowing why?

I prefer to teach movement patterns and balancing movements that allow people to deal with the physics of sliding down a hill.

 

[fatbob]

I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?

Because it's perceived as an old school style?
I tend to think of that in seeing skiers who cleatly learned in the straight ski era and the way of making turns easier was to completely unweight the inside ski.

I guess I'm partially in the OP's camp. We have 2 skis for a reason and while we should be weighting them appropriately the extremes of single ski drills seem to sometimes become a goal in and of themselves. I notice this most when I see people who have a very drilled mechanistic piste style trying to transfer to off piste or more variable conditions - they seem to lack fine tuning of weight between their skis.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Moving from one foot to the other while sliding is fundamental to skiing. Many beginners are terrified of picking up one ski if they are sliding downhill, if even for a second. They are unable to get themselves to step through their turns. Shuffling can even be difficult for some people. This fear needs to be purged. They need to limber up, and move while sliding, or that rigidity will plague their skiing for a long time. These folk will have difficulty letting go of the old turn because fearing the loss of solid control that comes with release will control their movements. Skiers need to learn to ski from one outside foot to the other outside foot.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I have the opposite question. I've asked this before, but not gotten a convincing answer. I was in a lesson that included a bit of video analysis. For a couple of us, the instructor saw, and called out, daylight under the inside ski at the apex of the turn. My question is, why is this a flaw?

I asked an examiner this same question. The answer was complicated.
Some lifting of the inside ski is fine, especially in advanced dynamic short radius turns.

What is not fine is when the skier lifts the tip of the new inside ski and turns it, airborne, to get it out of the way of the new outside ski as the turn begins.
When a skier does this, the inside ski usually has a lot of tip lead.
This is a problem some skiers have that's left over from earlier experiences when they crossed their tips and fell.
They don't want to do that again, so they lift and rotate the tip of the new inside ski to keep it out of the way of the new outside ski.
They have not yet learned to hold that new inside ski back up under them.
And they have not yet learned to flatten/release it on the snow before edging the new outside ski.