Zipperline Bump skiing,objectively why

[Stacks]

15 pages and all but I think this is how it's done. 'Riding the lion'.

 

[crgildart]

15 pages and all but I think this is how it's done. 'Riding the lion'.

Yabut whattabout Moseley's dolphin turns??

 

[Paul Shifflet]

Not the best camera angle but all I could prevail on my wife to film today - not her favorite activity.

I like your instructor trained pole plants, very disciplined. Your turn quality is apropos for speed control in the zipper line, i.e. smeary. If you turned on every bump, you'd look pretty good. For the style you're after, you're not getting the skis up on edge enough. You might try level shoulders to give you more angulation. How'd I do?

 

[Mike King]

I like your instructor trained pole plants, very disciplined. Your turn quality is apropos for speed control in the zipper line, i.e. smeary. If you turned on every bump, you'd look pretty good. For the style you're after, you're not getting the skis up on edge enough. You might try level shoulders to give you more angulation. How'd I do?

I'm sticking with cut 2" off of those poles.

Mike

 

[Seldomski]

you're not getting the skis up on edge enough

Why would he want more edge angle?

 

[Josh Matta]

Id cut 6 off... but it up for geepers to decide.

 

[tball]

If you turned on every bump, you'd look pretty good.

Agreed, but at the risk of becoming associated with the zipperline mafia.

Nice skiing @geepers. I'll echo the shorter poles too. I went shorter this year and am enjoying the change. And, please thank your wife for indulging us by shooting the video.

 

[Paul Shifflet]

Why would he want more edge angle?

No good reason other than to make it exciting for me. If you're missing some turns, you need something to spice it up. Add in some spirit fingers or a dolphin turn, something dynamic and powerful.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Spirit fingers?

 

[Paul Shifflet]

Spirit fingers?

 

[Tricia]

What is OBJECTIVELY better about it?

Its not faster than GS turning though bumps, its not less impacts than smooth round lines, its more tiring, it not at versatile "places have bad bumps", its not slower than other methods.

If you subjectively like that style of skiing better , thats great,, this thread isnt for opinions, what is objectively better about comp/zipperline bump skiing?

Well, it's better for winning bump competitions.

Most people who ski bumps on a regular basis don't end up skiing zipper line because natural moguls don't invite that kind of skiing (in general)
If you're competing and you practice zipper line, then its unbelievably amazing to watch( as a spectator) or ski as a competitor

In a simpler way, I found the bumps at Alta and Deer Valley much more fun to ski than those I find at other resorts.

Resorts where skiers who find short radius turns a natural part of the selection *may* be the places to ski bumps that are more naturally shaped.


That is how I see it.

 

[tball]

How is JB's technique different in those bump sequences in his Fog Lit Street vid than WC moguls? All I can say is compare the two:

I think it's more he moguls and the speed that's different, not the technique.

I bet those two skiers skiing the exact same bumps at the same speed wouldn't look too different in terms of their technique. The competitive athlete would be more refined due to his focused mogul training, but I suspect their technique would look substantially similar.

The size and shape of moguls always impact how they are skied. And, speed matters. When a competitive bump skier slows down they look very different. Their skies will come across the hill more like in the JB sequence.

Watch the US Ski Team guys and Jonny Mosely in the "Return of the Turn - Wanna Ski Some Bumps?" video posted above as a great example of comp mogul skiers skiing out of the course. Does anybody not want to ski like those guys?

 

[Paul Shifflet]

Most people who ski bumps on a regular basis don't end up skiing zipper line because natural moguls don't invite that kind of skiing (in general)

When I first started reading forum posts about mogul skiing, I would see people write this, and I believed it whole heatedly. But, since then I've been paying attention, and I couldn't disagree more. Maybe in groups of instructors that are taught a certain approach this could be true, but when I look at recreational skiers I see most good skiers turning on every bump. Maybe this comes down to the definition of zipper line skiing. If you mean skiing straight while hardly turning, then I'd agree. If you mean turning on every bump, then I completely disagree. By good skier, I don't mean good because they are zipper line mogul skiers, I mean not clearly intermediate that are struggling to stay balanced in the bumps. A great mogul skier can zipper natural bumps no problem. I've seen it many times.

 

[crgildart]

^^^^Right. The chosen line turning at every bump remains the same. The rhythm may show less cadence since the bumps are not spaced at such regular, short intervals. A good bump skier will still spend a lot of time in that groove just adjusting their turn shapes to the more irregular path of natural zipperline chosen.It may not look like zippeline skiing from a distance or based on the less consistent rhythm, but it is still the same approach. I will say that you hae to look a little farther ahead in natural bumps than you do in seeded bumps. What's coming up is less predictable.

 

[geepers]

Thanks for the feedback. Going to try 5cm shorter poles for starters.

Missing bumps...hmmm...perhaps folk that saw that would be good enough to point out which bumps I missed. That little patch of bumps was like close quarter bubble wrap.

@tball, of course there's a lot of similarity - they are both skiing moguls. There's a also quite a bit of difference. The comp skier has a much more upright upper body and makes greater use of legs coming up in front on absorption. Probably needs its own topic.

And I'd be surprised if anyone didn't want to be able to ski like either of the skiers in those gifs.

Personally I aspire to the JB style - except for the bit around 1:10 where he bangs down from bump to bump. These days that makes me wince. For that matter the entire WC skier run also makes me wince.

@Paul Shifflet - simply don't get viber fingers or whatever it's called.

Asked before: where do you ski in Oz?

 

[crgildart]

Anyone else think those old 70s and early 80s bump comp videos woulsn't look quite so crazy and all over the place if they skied with shorter poles? Even with good, under control skiing your arms just look wild with regular poles in the bumps. Not to mention you get knocked around and off center trying to manage with regular poles too long for bump skiing.

 

[Mike King]

@geepers, it’s good skiing, but it would not pass the level 3 standard in PSIA-RM. the biggest issue is that you are not traveling with the ski, so when you get to edge change, you are already inside and have to pivot the skis and push them away from your body. What the standard in our division is that the skis need to move through edge change cleanly, without a pivot. You can see the issue as the tips are in the air as you start down the backside of the bump.

Secondly, you need more flexion and extension in your skiing. With a greater amount of flexion (and, yes, allow the hips to come aft of the bindings), staying with the ski, and a bit more upright upper body, you will see the ski engaged immediately after edge change on the backside of the bump. This will give access to turn shape to control your speed rather than skidding the ski.

Mike

 

[Paul Shifflet]

Missing bumps...hmmm...perhaps folk that saw that would be good enough to point out which bumps I missed. That little patch of bumps was like close quarter bubble wrap.

The photo below shows the line I would take. The blue line connects the dots where I would aim my tips on the bump ridges. The red lines define the corridor boundary that I would be unlikely to cross. An alternative line is one corridor to the left about the same width. You'll end up with a cadence and look similar to what you have at 0:09, just maintained top to bottom instead of two-three turns. If you want any chance to hold that line, you'll need level shoulders and not use inclination, though you had level shoulders for your quicker turns at 0:09. Speed control would be no problem, and there would be no impact for that line. I'm not going to argue or try to prove any of this. But, in the name of honest sharing, I hope you can take my word for it, and merely learn how someone else would do things. You can do it any way you like, though it sounds like to get your level 3 you're going to have to work on getting up on those edges for your turns. I say to heck with all of it, and just throw in some spirit fingers for pure gold.

I'm just here for work. It doesn't look like I'm going to get a chance to ski.

 

[geepers]

@geepers, it’s good skiing, but it would not pass the level 3 standard in PSIA-RM. the biggest issue is that you are not traveling with the ski, so when you get to edge change, you are already inside and have to pivot the skis and push them away from your body. What the standard in our division is that the skis need to move through edge change cleanly, without a pivot. You can see the issue as the tips are in the air as you start down the backside of the bump.

Secondly, you need more flexion and extension in your skiing. With a greater amount of flexion (and, yes, allow the hips to come aft of the bindings), staying with the ski, and a bit more upright upper body, you will see the ski engaged immediately after edge change on the backside of the bump. This will give access to turn shape to control your speed rather than skidding the ski.

Mike

All good points. Would have been better to get vid from the front which I'm sure would have revealed a greater litany of sins.

The photo below shows the line I would take. The blue line connects the dots where I would aim my tips on the bump ridges. The red lines define the corridor boundary that I would be unlikely to cross. An alternative line is one corridor to the left about the same width. You'll end up with a cadence and look similar to what you have at 0:09, just maintained top to bottom instead of two-three turns. If you want any chance to hold that line, you'll need level shoulders and not use inclination, though you had level shoulders for your quicker turns at 0:09. Speed control would be no problem, and there would be no impact for that line. I'm not going to argue or try to prove any of this. But, in the name of honest sharing, I hope you can take my word for it, and merely learn how someone else would do things. You can do it any way you like, though it sounds like to get your level 3 you're going to have to work on getting up on those edges for your turns. I say to heck with all of it, and just throw in some spirit fingers for pure gold.

View attachment 67004

I'm just here for work. It doesn't look like I'm going to get a chance to ski.

One of the problems with vids and photos. The lines you marked would be across the natural fall line which is down the path I took. It's a very short pitch and where I finished at the base is the lowest point for bumps. That sort of ringed area to the right is a raised plateau - it's a water tank or some such.

Not to say you don't have a valid point but you might change your line advice looking at the actual pitch.

Vid does distort things. I once took helmet cam of a couple of different runs. One rather mild blue run with small bumps and one much, much steeper black run with some very large bumps. Wanted to make a point about the influence of terrain. The only trouble was on vid the easy blue looked far more severe than the much more challenging black!

 

[crgildart]

View attachment 67004

I'm just here for work. It doesn't look like I'm going to get a chance to ski.

I'd take this line..