I rarely see this. In fact, I did it today. I use a longer sentence, tho, so maybe they have time to think.
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Why doesn't PSIA and ski instruction in general utilize gates for teaching round and controlled turns?
- Thread starter wolcoma
- Start date
One of the advantages of setting paneled style gates in say a 15M to 22M distance similar to NASTAR is it encourages skiers to look ahead. We train kids with stubby gates and brushes all the time, with the one disadvantage as you can go straight at those gates with little turn shape, meaning most of the turn is below the gate, where with paneled slalom or GS gates you have to make a rounder turn around those gates, thus encouraging turn shape. One of the best ways to prevent skiers from just hitting the gates is to set brushes above the paneled gate so skiers make a rounder (higher) turn and more controlled skiing.
My entire point of this suggestion is to encourage skiers to make safer and rounder turns on the slopes. If you watch really good racers out free skiing many of them actually ski a lot slower than recreational skiers who are skiing too straight and just making a few check turns rather than carving.
My entire point of this suggestion is to encourage skiers to make safer and rounder turns on the slopes. If you watch really good racers out free skiing many of them actually ski a lot slower than recreational skiers who are skiing too straight and just making a few check turns rather than carving.
@Chris V. , we have one race clinic a year with Dan Ray/Ron Kipp, look for it. NASTAR course is also set up at the other mountain.
And of course, Barclay often goes up early to set up brushes for us on Westshore.
We set a course for kids most every day at Snowmass. We also have Nastar, which is free to the public, but does require registration and signing a waiver. We also sell race training clinics to the public (slalom, usually set with a combination of stubbies and tall poles) every week at Aspen Mountain and Snowmass. These clinics are pretty cheap ($110/day) and led by top instructors with race backgrounds. We don't get a lot of participation in those clinics (well, I don't know what's going on at Aspen), but the participation at Snowmass seems to be a bunch of members of the general public who are racing in the town race series. There's a cadre of ski instructors here at Snowmass who find a way to run the course set for the clinics as a way to work on our skills.
I've just started running gates as a way to improve my skiing skills. There's a contingent of instructors from Aspen who go to Rossi Race Camp at Mammoth every year. Last season was my first one, and I'm going again. It's a great way to work on the fundamentals in your skiing when the season is pretty much over.
Mike
I've just started running gates as a way to improve my skiing skills. There's a contingent of instructors from Aspen who go to Rossi Race Camp at Mammoth every year. Last season was my first one, and I'm going again. It's a great way to work on the fundamentals in your skiing when the season is pretty much over.
Mike
I don't think majority of skiers know the concept of "turn shape". Never mind what a good turn shape looks like.
If you can't visualize what a good turn shape is like, there's no way to execute one.
So, yeah, it would be a very good idea to set some stuff up to help with that. With proper instruction of how to achieve the turn shape, maybe more people will learn how to actually ski.
I don't think majority of skiers know the concept of "turn shape". Never mind what a good turn shape looks like.
If you can't visualize what a good turn shape is like, there's no way to execute one.
So, yeah, it would be a very good idea to set some stuff up to help with that. With proper instruction of how to achieve the turn shape, maybe more people will learn how to actually ski.
Surprised gates needed to teach ppl a rounded turn shape. How about just draw a nice semi-circle in the snow?
Based on experience, I don't think gates especially "race" gates are ideal for *beginner* teaching round turn shape. (more below)
I find a cascade of individual C turns to stop, alternating directions, with a group, tends to do that, yet still allows for the people who take more time and effort to adapt or initially come in slow, fast or a bit off target to keep iterating. C turns can get very early learners practicing 3 skills quickly and (for most) iterating to success in a short period of time. 1.) speed control 2.) control turn shape 3.) control turn inputs to adapt to terrain. (a series of segments down the slope might include off-camber, a bump or roll, variable surface conditions etc.)
It also gradually puts them more on the outside foot, without the confusion of linking turns immediately. When they get bored, linking starts to happen "naturally"
I often say my primary function as an instructor is to bore the student to the point they take the next step in the progression on their own.
Sometimes we do set up cones for young beginners on gentle green terrain.
It draws them like moths to the flame and they start practicing all sorts of shape turns copying, interacting and experimenting with each other, rather than immediately wanting to bomb the slope so as to avoid turning.
I find a cascade of individual C turns to stop, alternating directions, with a group, tends to do that, yet still allows for the people who take more time and effort to adapt or initially come in slow, fast or a bit off target to keep iterating. C turns can get very early learners practicing 3 skills quickly and (for most) iterating to success in a short period of time. 1.) speed control 2.) control turn shape 3.) control turn inputs to adapt to terrain. (a series of segments down the slope might include off-camber, a bump or roll, variable surface conditions etc.)
It also gradually puts them more on the outside foot, without the confusion of linking turns immediately. When they get bored, linking starts to happen "naturally"
I often say my primary function as an instructor is to bore the student to the point they take the next step in the progression on their own.
Sometimes we do set up cones for young beginners on gentle green terrain.
It draws them like moths to the flame and they start practicing all sorts of shape turns copying, interacting and experimenting with each other, rather than immediately wanting to bomb the slope so as to avoid turning.
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It is not "PSIA" or "ski instruction". it is ski area management. Few areas walk their talk and really focus on developing good skiers or on the guest experience. Just look at the PSIA calendar. Those areas that do not host PSIA events generally have shit for instructor training opportunities - and that reflects and carries over to the guest experience.
Beginner slopes at Snowmass typically have gates set-up - usually subbies on a run that anyone can jump on, no charge, nothing is monitored. Of course, the guest experience at SkiCo is a bit a high bar that few other ski areas can match, or care to.
Beginner slopes at Snowmass typically have gates set-up - usually subbies on a run that anyone can jump on, no charge, nothing is monitored. Of course, the guest experience at SkiCo is a bit a high bar that few other ski areas can match, or care to.
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I find standard gates on their own are great at creating z-turn skiers, who point towards a gate, pivot around the gate while braking/skidding, then aim at the next gate.
I have more success with my learners developing their turn shape outside of gates. Helpful tools that come to mind include:
I have more success with my learners developing their turn shape outside of gates. Helpful tools that come to mind include:
- corridors (whether using brushes or just shadows from a chairlift line)
- berms (to create the feeling of pressure through an arc by skiing up the wall)
- "follow me" (assuming the leader has a round turn shape)
- counting 1-2-3 throughout each turn (1 is on new edges, 2 is pointing down fall line, 3 is releasing edges)
- Garlands (to build the bottom half) or "chicken out turns" (to build the top half)
- Stork turns, starting progressively higher in the arc as skiers find balance against the outside ski earlier
While skiing at Mt Rose today I saw a sign in the rotation on the big lighted signs that said something about Friday Gates day.
I will look into that.
skirose.com
I will look into that.
Friday Night Gates
MT ROSE PRESENTS FRIDAY NITE GATES ( Recreational League Racing ) 6 Nights of Racing to Win The Coveted FNG Rotating Cup
skirose.com
Only on their first run though.
They need to be taught where to aim to start the turn.
Everything about skiing is counter-intuitive. Takes ages for people to “figure it out”…often end up the wrong way.
Yes! You should enter a Ski Talk team! This will be a fun series! I look forward to seeing you there and promise to keep the course sets fun!While skiing at Mt Rose today I saw a sign in the rotation on the big lighted signs that said something about Friday Gates day.
I will look into that.
Friday Night Gates
MT ROSE PRESENTS FRIDAY NITE GATES ( Recreational League Racing ) 6 Nights of Racing to Win The Coveted FNG Rotating Cup
What gates do is to challenge your abilities. It’s not particularly good at developing technical skills (or strength which is another important part). It is good for understanding and developing gate tactics, to be faster in a course. Your tactics will be 100% dictated by your abilities. Technique and strength is more appropriate to train outside a course. With that said—a race course is very revealing and will expose weak points in technique, strength and/or tactics. A great complement to reach higher levels. And bloody fun.
Our biggest issue is that we can't find a snowboarder for our crew and that is a requirement.
I agree you do not need gates for beginner skiers, but I do think having brushes on very flat terrain encourages beginner skiers to make turns. As previously mentioned, when teaching my own three kids to ski (they all started at ages 2-3) once they were off skiing on their own, I set brushes for them to ski around and I think it was very beneficially. I can still see my kids pressuring their outside ski as they made turns around those brushes.
Even if you take a low intermediate skier and have them make turns on very moderate terrain (Green Slope) around a NASTAR type paneled slalom course, they will look ahead and pressure their outside ski to make turns around the course. I often have really good ski instructors jump in one of my training courses only to see them ski out after only a few gates. It may be the ice or the ruts, then they get late and are out of the course. However, if I take those same instructors and teach them how to ski slalom or GS course with a proper line, they will master the gates in a hurry.
Even if you take a low intermediate skier and have them make turns on very moderate terrain (Green Slope) around a NASTAR type paneled slalom course, they will look ahead and pressure their outside ski to make turns around the course. I often have really good ski instructors jump in one of my training courses only to see them ski out after only a few gates. It may be the ice or the ruts, then they get late and are out of the course. However, if I take those same instructors and teach them how to ski slalom or GS course with a proper line, they will master the gates in a hurry.
We use brush gates in our learn to ski area. They make an enormous difference in helping people to understand how to use turn shape for speed control.
Hey, fair question! I've been an active part-time instructor for the past 15 seasons, primarily at two resorts: Stratton/VT and Butternut/MA...putting in around 25-35 teaching days per season. To answer your question one way (there's probably 10-15 different ways)...
1. It's hard enough getting our "students" from never-ever to decent turns, that it would just add another wrinkle to the process.
2. Sometimes I have seen instructors using those short bushy things you plug into the snow, but not a lot.
3. I also imagine resort management would not allow the above "bushy plugs" to be used anywhere except a few of the true beginner runs.
4. Many instructors, including myself, tend to "mix it up" a lot during a lesson, rather than ski down the same-old/same-old run all lesson long. One of the super important things I learned pretty quickly as an instructor was this: if my student isn't having BIG FUN, then there's just not as much learning going on. Repetitive drills are for M-F school, but in a ski school lesson with me...not so much! I am hugely focused on the fun factor, whether my student is a 5,6 or 7 year old, a teenager, or a young adult in her/his 20s or 30s. Why? Simply because I can teach the stuff I want my students to learn WHILE they also have fun! This is huge, because when my students have fun in the lesson it's so much more likely that they'll come back for more lessons. And that's a key for learning: practice, practice, practice. When the learner realizes that she/he is learning and improving with each lesson it's a hell of a lot easier to get them to do what I want...cause they see I know what I'm talking about!
Just one guy's take! (And you race coaches get the skiers when they're already at least half-way to great skiers)