What is a hip dump?

[karlo]

you are missing is the outside ski flapping in the wind as the body is too far inside

But, I see it flapping at high edge angle

Here's a bit of note taking I took long ago from EpicSki. The words and images are all by jamt, who knows his stuff. Sorry about the poor quality of the text; I had to take it through two conversions to get it posted.
View attachment 83805

@Jamt

Here's another. No hip dump on left, yes hip dump on right. Note the A-frame on the right, along with diverging tips, both common signifiers of hip dump. The inward rotation of the inside knee is clear in the second image. This could be a result of over-rotation of the pelvis into counter which brings the inside hip too far forward and moves its knee inward. Or perhaps it's because of what jamt points out - inadequate usage of functional tipping at the subtalar joint with excessive reliance of rotation at the hip joint.
View attachment 83812

And the edge of outside ski is not as much on edge as the inside?

I think in your examples it is very clear that these skiers use the inside as a crutch—a signum of hip dumpers.

Crutch for what??

 

[Chris V.]

(1) Re any critique of Marcus Caston--there's nothing wrong with having fun.

(2) I'd say as a short list of things to look for in assessing the functionality of moving the hip toward the snow:

o Where are the knees pointing?

o Are the edge angles of the two skis equal?

o Does the skier appear to be balanced over the inside edge of the outside ski?

 

[Swede]

But, I see it flapping at high edge angle



@Jamt



And the edge of outside ski is not as much on edge as the inside?



Crutch for what??

For balance.

 

[markojp]

And here are some obvious hip dump images. The first showcases excess back-seatness, as the skier is almost sitting down on the snow. Both reveal through snow spray that they have excessive weight on the inside ski, and diverging tips are visible in the second image.
View attachment 83807 View attachment 83808

Both skiers have lost platform angle as well.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Well, yeah, edge hold is all about platform angle.

 

[Tony S]

I'm just waiting for Tim Gunn to weigh in here on platform angle.

 

[markojp]

Well, yeah, edge hold is all about platform angle.

I figured most here who teach/coach a lot and committed to improving their personal skiing like yourself will know this, but others quietly following the thread may not. I also should apologize if it had been previously discussed. It's rare that there's time to follow every post in any particular thread. As such it's best that I refrain from further comment. It's not my intent to ruffle feathers on the interwebz. It's more productive doing so on the hill with folks paying for the service.

 

[Tony S]

As such it's best that I refrain from further comment

Oh please. You're much better grounded in this stuff than 95% of contributors. Don't stand on ceremony when no one else is even aware that there is a ceremony.

 

[Tony S]

No one will bite

I know. I'm SO disappointed in the Pugs! Sheesh.

 

[Bendzeekneez]

Here's a bit of note taking I took long ago from EpicSki. The words and images are all by jamt, who knows his stuff. Sorry about the poor quality of the text; I had to take it through two conversions to get it posted.
View attachment 83805

THIS. Easily the best description.

 

[KingGrump]

I know. I'm SO disappointed in the Pugs! Sheesh.

It's a #20 sledge underneath the velvet.
The dent in my head haven't healed yet.

 

[markojp]

Oh please. You're much better grounded in this stuff than 95% of contributors. Don't stand on ceremony when no one else is even aware that there is a ceremony.

These threads always have some very useful information and often an accompanying load of misunderstanding. I just don't have the time needed to articulate ideas as clearly as needed which leads to much of the latter... it's more about doing a topic justice. If there isn't time, it's better to just read.

 

[karlo]

These threads always have some very useful information and often an accompanying load of misunderstanding. I just don't have the time needed to articulate ideas as clearly as needed which leads to much of the latter... it's more about doing a topic justice. If there isn't time, it's better to just read.

For what it’s worth, it’s all coming together for me, understanding what a hip dump is, plus what you and everyone is writing and describing is amazing MA clinicing

 

[karlo]

2) I'd say as a short list of things to look for in assessing the functionality of moving the hip toward the snow:

o Where are the knees pointing?

o Does the skier appear to be balanced over the inside edge of the outside ski?

By that you mean,

Are both knees pointed in the same direction, and in the direction of the turn?

And, not balanced on neither the inside ski nor significantly on the inside ski?

 

[Chris V.]

By that you mean,

Are both knees pointed in the same direction, and in the direction of the turn?

And, not balanced on neither the inside ski nor significantly on the inside ski?

Tipping of the feet should result in knees pointing in the direction of ski tips, or farther to the inside of the turn. Look at some of the pictures of hip dumps, and you'll see what can become, instead, a pronounced pointing of the knees to the outside of the turn. This results directly from allowing rotation of the legs in that direction from the subtalar joints. As I've called it, the opposite of tipping. This rotation facilitates pointing the bum to the inside of the turn, which in turn allows sitting down to lower the hips to the snow.

And yes, others have noted that there can be A-framing, which will mean the knees are not both pointed the same direction.

As others have noted, hip dumping is often associated with excess weight on the inside ski. Whereas what we want is a strong commitment to balance on the inside edge of the outside ski.

Anyway, that's what I meant.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I figured most here who teach/coach a lot and committed to improving their personal skiing like yourself will know this, but others quietly following the thread may not. I also should apologize if it had been previously discussed. It's rare that there's time to follow every post in any particular thread. As such it's best that I refrain from further comment. It's not my intent to ruffle feathers on the interwebz. It's more productive doing so on the hill with folks paying for the service.

What? No idea why you are saying this, but you quoted me in this post, implying my post brought on your response. How about an explanation?

 

[geepers]

Here's a bit of note taking I took long ago from EpicSki. The words and images are all by jamt, who knows his stuff. Sorry about the poor quality of the text; I had to take it through two conversions to get it posted.
View attachment 83805

Best on the topic so far. Several BFOs from that one. Thanks to @Jamt for creating it and you for recalling and re-posting.

Both skiers have lost platform angle as well.

Most useful concept I encountered last season. Of course it's one thing to understand the mechanism that keeps a ski gripping and quite another thing to actively replicate it.

 

[markojp]

What? No idea why you are saying this, but you quoted me in this post, implying my post brought on your response. How about an explanation?

No worries, just misunderstood your post. Being in a hurry reading, writing.. I own it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

 

[karlo]

No worries, just misunderstood your post. Being in a hurry reading, writing.. I own it.

Whew. So, what’s platform angle? How is that different from edge angle And what is its relationship to edge hold?