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JESinstr

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@Jamt and @razie I knew there was a reason I joined ski forums! Very educational. Since you guys are from the racing side and I come from the ski school side I can see the performance implications for racers. But what about the vast majority of recreational skiers?

As Raz said in his above post with the "Advanced Carving" video: "You'll see many that refined hip dumping into some pretty good skiing... basically, when you look carefully, the "edging movements" are counter, shuffle the inside ski forward (make room for the hips to drop) and sit down. This is kind'a the stages of improvement out there, as soon as a skier can dig an edge in, they tend to incline and rotate into the turn. Then in time they figure out the counter and start hip dumping. They're all forms of upper-body skiing."

Like many on this forum, I work with beginner levels a majority of the time and I try to instill good fundamentals from the get go. The symptoms that Raz points out is disturbing because it tears at much of what we try to build.
 

razie

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But what about the vast majority of recreational skiers?

As Raz said in his above post with the "Advanced Carving" video: "You'll see many that refined hip dumping into some pretty good skiing... basically, when you look carefully, the "edging movements" are counter, shuffle the inside ski forward (make room for the hips to drop) and sit down. This is kind'a the stages of improvement out there, as soon as a skier can dig an edge in, they tend to incline and rotate into the turn. Then in time they figure out the counter and start hip dumping. They're all forms of upper-body skiing."

Like many on this forum, I work with beginner levels a majority of the time and I try to instill good fundamentals from the get go. The symptoms that Raz points out is disturbing because it tears at much of what we try to build.
I'm not sure I would put it that way, I don't think many would try to teach hip dumping... (although I've actually seen race coaches do that, because it is a shortcut to carving with angles).

For me, the principle of separation is the most important of all skiing. Rotational separation (counter, coiling, counteraction), lateral separation (angulation, counterbalance), also vertical separation (relaxation, flexing) - I don't think it's a common view as such, but that's mine and I'm sticking to it :) (and yeah, I know the expression "vertical separation" generally refers to stance...)

I think JES, that the issue is one of movement pattern. Of course there needs to be counter - but did the skier just rotate the hips first and sit down to make that happen (park and ride and hip dump) or did the skier counter the hips proportional to tipping the skis on edge - (not park and ride, not hip dump) ? It matters how you teach it... As most skiers are self-taught (which is what I had in mind writing that) as soon as they figure out counter, they overuse it and end up hip dumping and as it feels "good" they never evolve beyond it, just keep refining it.

But to answer your question, how does this matter for recreational skiers? Safe enjoyment for one: when the skier has good separation, that leads to better balance thus safer skiing in all sorts of scenarios.

Once the skier can separate, I think Zenny puts this well, when he looks at consuming the range of motion: when the skier rotates the hips first, he's at the maximum of the range of movement in that direction and if he/she gets out of balance, he/she is screwed because there's no more ROM left to compensate.
 
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James

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Hip dumping is when the hip puts the ski on edge rather than foot tipping. When the hip is the first to move into the new turn, dragging the skis on edge as a consequence.

It is very common, most skiers out there ski this way, few have refined the lower body movements and the separation required to lead with the lower body.
Yeah that's not really that clear cut. By that definition, this is hip dumping:
IMG_4528.PNG


raich-aare-2006-gs-2-2007-thumb.jpg

IMG_0071.JPG


I'm definitely for skiing from the feet. The problem is so many forget about what the largest mass of all is doing, the body. You can't get to transition and suddenly decide you have to do something with it. You'll have no flow at all in your skiing. There's nothing wrong with having the body, which includes the hips, go into the new turn taking the parts with it. Like the boots, feet, skis.
Those who struggle in powder where there's enough pitch to turn without bouncing might consider this issue.

Meanwhile, the majority of that group obsessed with foot tipping, pullback, and countering, may not be hip dumping but they always look like they're taking a dump. Plus it's slower than dirt in slalom.
 

tball

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So the kids at home don't get confused (like I was), here's a hip check on a steep run:


Back to your regularly scheduled hip dumps.
 
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razie

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Yeah that's not really that clear cut. By that definition, this is hip dumping:

raich-aare-2006-gs-2-2007-thumb.jpg
Maybe this one, a little in this turn - it's racing, but he's not doing what Jamt said, so not quite - his definition is more strict.

The problem is so many forget about what the largest mass of all is doing, the body. You can't get to transition and suddenly decide you have to do something with it.
:thumb:

There's nothing wrong with having the body, which includes the hips, go into the new turn taking the parts with it. Like the boots, feet, skis.
No, there isn't. Well, if that's how you always, turn, there is!

[...] foot tipping, pullback, and countering [...] it's slower than dirt in slalom.

??


:huh:
 
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James

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Maybe this one, a little in this turn - it's racing, but he's not doing what Jamt said, so not quite - his definition is more strict.

No, there isn't. Well, if that's how you always, turn, there is!

:huh:
The slower than dirt slalom comment was mostly about the high c obsession which seems to go foot in foot with the rest. There's almost no c's in slalom but feel free to find 1 or 2 and post, or argue the point.

As to "always skiing that way", if one always has a body, one should always be concerned about where it is and what path it's on. But, apparently that only applies to feet.
 

razie

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The slower than dirt slalom comment was mostly about the high c obsession which seems to go foot in foot with the rest. There's almost no c's in slalom but feel free to find 1 or 2 and post, or argue the point.

As to "always skiing that way", if one always has a body, one should always be concerned about where it is and what path it's on. But, apparently that only applies to feet.

Oh, I see what you mean.

I contend that there are 33 round C's in this video - in fact not one "non C" turn. It's not a matter of what comes out during a high-stakes all-out WC race, or some lower ranked race-fest, but it's a matter of what we train to do:


cheers
 
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James

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Oh, I see what you mean.

I contend that there are 33 round C's in this video - in fact not one "non C" turn. It's not a matter of what comes out during a high-stakes all-out WC race, or some lower ranked race-fest, but it's a matter of what we train to do:


cheers
Nice alphabet there. I contend the skis are never on edge before the fall line in those 33 (didn't count) parentheses. (I'll give you they're squashed c's.) Isn't that the point of the alleged high c? That's at least the theory people post about.
 

razie

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Nice alphabet there. I contend the skis are never on edge before the fall line in those 33 (didn't count) parentheses. (I'll give you they're squashed c's.) Isn't that the point of the alleged high c? That's at least the theory people post about.
not sure what you mean...

here's the first turn where I can clearly see the tracks (bottom of picture) - if that's not a track of a ski on edge way above the fall line, I don't know what is:

ms1.JPG

and there's more, but the guy follows so close, I can't see the tracks clearly.

here's how i look at this, maybe you look at it differently:

ms2.JPG


when I see that, the ski is way on edge, showing the base uphill way above the fall line (when it will be pointing down). It engages and digs in hard when she means to, but the ski is way on edge, carving as opposed to being pushed or redirected. And I see that in each and every turn in this video. Maybe you're not accustomed to how quickly a ski can snap when pressured at high angles, that's why it looks like a pivot, but it's most definitely not.

The point I think worth making is that grinding on edge is slow. being on edge is fast - I don't know if that distinction helps...

At the fall line she's already releasing - it would be too late for her level to get pressure - you can see that because the cloud of snow disappears when she releases... getting a platform only at the fall line - that's something you can expect of a much lower ranked racer. Way lower ranked.
 
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James

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Not sure why your suddenly talking about pivoting and grinding. Been watching Miley videos also?

IMG_4529.JPG

I don't get why you posted this one. It's after the gate. Thus it would be low c. It also goes against your "at the fall line she's already releasing it would be too late for her level to get pressure...that's something you can expect of a much lower ranked racer."
Well, she's well past both gate and fall line and is just releasing. The tracks above are in the fall line.

IMG_4530.JPG

I'll give you this one. Though it could be a fall away. Bases facing uphill is a stretch but there's some uphill, sure. Let's call it just before the fall line so we don't have to drop her down a level. Which is bizarre since it takes way more skill to make the turn in a smaller space. But somehow, a more direct line is less skilled? A high line takes more skill? Please explain. Assume I'm not accustomed to these matters.

Maybe you're not accustomed to how quickly a ski can snap when pressured at high angles, that's why it looks like a pivot, but it's most definitely not.
Lol. Ok. I never mentioned pivoting or redirecting at all. Curious why you go there.
So, fmi, what do you call it when skis change direction in the air? As in off the snow. An "anti-grind", a "levitation grind"? Or is that an "air carve"? I kind of like the later.
 

razie

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Not sure why your suddenly talking about pivoting and grinding. Been watching Miley videos also?
:roflmao:

View attachment 38567

The tracks visible at the bottom of the picture clearly show an edged and carving ski before the fall line... or are you implying that it magically got on high edge right at the fall line while being flat a microsecond before? And there's more turns where the same type of tracks are visible.

The puff of snow also stops at the fall line, there's nothing from her skis anymore so she is released or releasing (releasing is not an on off switch).

View attachment 38568
She is above the fall line because her skis are not pointing down, they're still pointing out. She is at the riseline if you want to get technical. She is on a great line. It's not a high line.

This is a little surreal though for me. All this is pretty basic and beyond obvious - I am not clear why you're bouncing it back? Your point was that in that run you don't see her edging the skis before the fall line!

I contend the skis are never on edge before the fall line in those 33 (didn't count) parentheses.

The simple fact is that she does edge the skis before the fall line! In each turn! Can you try the slow motion? The same two snapshots I put above repeat in pretty much every turn.

When the skis change direction in the air it's either pivoting or redirection. Take your pick. That's not what's happening here.
 
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James

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IMG_4529.JPG

The tracks visible at the bottom of the picture clearly show an edged and carving ski before the fall line... or are you implying that it magically got on high edge right at the fall line while being flat a microsecond before? And there's more turns where the same type of tracks are visible.
Well here's the issue, with the warped perspective everything looks uphill. I'm saying those tracks are basically in the fall line.

The puff of snow also stops at the fall line, there's nothing from her skis anymore so she is released or releasing (releasing is not an on off switch).
Puff of snow stops at fall line? Puff of snow is trailing by nearly 2 meters. I'd say she's just about to release in the photo. Still inside the skis, still countered.

Anyway, I did your work for you and here you go. This is clearly edged before the fall line. So yes, it is not in or after in every turn. Happy?
IMG_4531.PNG


When the skis change direction in the air it's either pivoting or redirection. Take your pick.
At least we use the same glossary for that. Still, "air carve" isn't bad. Obviously, she is not air carving in this vid.
 

Doby Man

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Hip dumping, as I see it, is a faulty timing issue that turns into a mechanical issue of rotation. When we throw our entire “stock” of rotation into the turn entry, phase one, the momentum of that quickly forced rotation causes further rotation to the point of being dysfunctional. Our CoM does not rotate from one center spot like a spinning top. When we rotate our CoM, the geometry of the skeleton carries the CoM to rotate outside of our skeletal or, geometrical rotational “center”. The reason why we apply a modicum of counter rotation of the hips over the ski is that the off-center rotary shift of our CoM supplies pressure to the front and outside (outside shovel). Continue this counter rotation too far as it further rotates the CoM and subsequent pressure to the ski over the rear and inside (inside tail). When we think about applying ski pressure in four quadrants: 1. outside shovel, 2. outside tail, 3. inside shovel, 4. inside tail, and apply it to our CoM rotation that is "out" from the center of skeletal rotation (quad center), we then see the direct link of our hip rotation as it relates to the pressure we give the ski. If we can’t relate any of the movements we discuss to the primary factor of skiing which is the the medium of force exchange between the ski and ground, we aren’t really getting at very much at all. When it comes to becoming an expert at anything athletic, discipline in maintaining fundamental mechanics is key. To me, intentional hip dumping represents skiing’s worst antithesis to that discipline.
 

SpauldingSmails

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This thread showed up at a good time. I 'laid it down' for the first time recently during a carve. I was practicing long turns on a steeper blue pitch and was moving at a good pace (no idea about the angle of the pitch or the speed of my turn, but relatively steeper and faster than my usual). Towards the middle of my sweet carve I was getting close to the ground so I reached out and touched, weeeeeeee! So exciting. That was my first time ever. Then I tried it on the second turn but it wasn't a natural position on that turn.

Over the next few days I realized, which is what this thread reads like in places, is that unless you're racing (in positions with speeds that cause or require this 'dumping') that 'laying it out' looks cool but is just a circus trick... or at least unnecessary. I don't know. Maybe I read this thread wrong but that's what it seems like to do this 'Eurocarving' or 'eXtreeeeeeme hip dumping' (say that like Randy Savage).
 

Average Joe

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A still shot / clip of World Cup racer as they reach maximum edge angle/apex on very hard or injected surfaces can be misleading. It may appear to some as hip dumping, (moving the hip into the hill early in the turn phase), but you will not reach the WC level throwing your hip into the hill to start a turn.
 

Wilhelmson

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While riding the chairlift yesterday I overheard an instructor loudly instructing a group of girls in a nordic accent "do not lower your hip." She sounded so serious that I didn't lower my hip all day until my legs were toasted from moguls.
 

razie

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While riding the chairlift yesterday I overheard an instructor loudly instructing a group of girls in a nordic accent "do not lower your hip." She sounded so serious that I didn't lower my hip all day until my legs were toasted from moguls.

Great! Not lowering your hips has the added benefit of keeping the pants dry...

:roflmao:

:beercheer:
 

Wilhelmson

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Actually I forgot that my kid hurt his ankle playing basketball, so after the first few hundred feet of waterlogged snow and icy drops I showed him how to do the old but slide down the waterfall. Sometimes its better to live to fight another day.
 

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