The first-ever disqualification for using fluorine wax

[jt10000]

Fluoro impregnated waxes, unless the iron temperature is too hot, it's generally safe to work with.

I think this is true if you're doing it a few times a year or even once a weekend for the winter. But I doubt being in a small room waxing for several hours a day with any kind of wax is wise without good ventilation. I'm not talking smoke, but the minor fumes from melting correctly. Which was the situation in top-level skiing for wax tech 20 or so years ago. Even wax dust (not fumes, dust) seems like a bad idea to breath in a lot.

 

[4ster]

I think we are good to go and world is saved so no more global warming, no more polution and all is good and perfect again.

I thought we solved that when we eliminated plastic straws

 

[cantunamunch]

I think this is true if you're doing it a few times a year or even once a weekend for the winter. But I doubt being in a small room waxing for several hours a day with any kind of wax is wise without good ventilation. I'm not talking smoke, but the minor fumes from melting correctly. Which was the situation in top-level skiing for wax tech 20 or so years ago. Even wax dust (not fumes, dust) seems like a bad idea to breath in a lot.

With all those rotobrushes going the aerosol dust is a bigger concern than vapor. Especially fluoro - remember that these compounds have insanely low vapor pressure - they are used to lubricate vacuum pumps for that exact reason.

And then when that aerosol is drawn through a lit cigarette...

 

[snwbrdr]

I still don't really understand why anyone cares. If nobody has access to them.. I guess the land speed record won't be broken...

I still have High Fluoro waxes, for personal use (not racing)... for plenty of seasons to come.

I need all the glide I can get, especially with the uphill traverses some mountains have.

 

[Zirbl]

I'm struggling to see how a wax company can advise working only with a flow of fresh air in and old air out, wearing a respirator and overalls, vacuuming with HEPA filters and washing your face afterwards while branding their waxes non-toxic. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[pchewn]

I'm struggling to see how a wax company can advise working only with a flow of fresh air in and old air out, wearing a respirator and overalls, vacuuming with HEPA filters and washing your face afterwards while branding their waxes non-toxic. Can anyone enlighten me?

Sometimes it's not the toxicity that kills you. Just the presence of a foreign material. For example: Many miners died from inhaling rock dust from dry drilling. The rock dust is not toxic. It accumulates in the lungs, irritating them and then you die from the fluid in your damaged lungs.

Silicosis

 

[nnowak]

@Zirbl you got it quite right. But you also forgot all the harm those few kilos of fluoro used in those few ski waxes can do to environment. All those tons of fluoro used for every possible item you buy is all good on the other side. But since this issue with ski waxes is now solved, I think we are good to go and world is saved so no more global warming, no more polution and all is good and perfect again. See how much good skiing can do to world

From what I have seen, most consumer products companies are working to phase out PFCs

 

[Zirbl]

Sometimes it's not the toxicity that kills you. Just the presence of a foreign material. For example: Many miners died from inhaling rock dust from dry drilling. The rock dust is not toxic. It accumulates in the lungs, irritating them and then you die from the fluid in your damaged lungs.

Silicosis

Take your point that it's not how we generally think of poisons, but studies on silicosis talk about the toxicity of silica in this scenario, so I'm still struggling re. the labelling. Unless they're using the dosage definition, but that would apply to PFCs too wouldn't it?

 

[cantunamunch]

Take your point that it's not how we generally think of poisons, but studies on silicosis talk about the toxicity of silica in this scenario, so I'm still struggling re. the labelling. Unless they're using the dosage definition, but that would apply to PFCs too wouldn't it?

You're shifting the goalposts with the word 'toxic'. It is not a poison. If we mean 'damaging' then let's say "damaging". Leave the word 'toxic' to the scare tactitians.



The hard truth is that breathing anything (that isn't immediately soluble*) in fine aerosol form is "damaging" to lungs.

Including sawdust. The exact same safety language - respirators, fresh air, wash your face and hair - applies to people who use high speed woodworking machinery. Anything less than that isn't categorically safe. And yet everyone would laugh out loud at the ridiculousness of calling wood, lumber and timber directly poisonous. Let alone at an attempt to phase out lumber for 'toxicity'.


*yes, the fiberglass industry did spend millions developing biosoluble glass compositions, for this very reason.

 

[Zirbl]

You're shifting the goalposts with the word 'toxic'. It is not a poison. If we mean 'damaging' then let's say "damaging". Leave the word 'toxic' to the scare tactitians.



The hard truth is that breathing anything (that isn't immediately soluble*) in fine aerosol form is "damaging" to lungs.

Including sawdust. The exact same safety language - respirators, fresh air, wash your face and hair - applies to people who use high speed woodworking machinery. Anything less than that isn't categorically safe. And yet everyone would laugh out loud at the ridiculousness of calling wood, lumber and timber directly poisonous. Let alone at an attempt to phase out lumber for 'toxicity'.


*yes, the fiberglass industry did spend millions developing biosoluble glass compositions, for this very reason.

Half a fair cop. My logic in my previous post is certainly awry in that @pchewn provides a perfectly good explanation of why PPE can be required while a label still says non-toxic. Had the example been sawdust, or flour for that matter, I'd have accepted it without disappearing up my own twisted rectum.
But it's not like I invented the term "toxic", I just used it as it's used in toxicology, where they speak of different "mechanisms of toxicity", and causing inflammation in the lungs is one of them. I threw in "poison" as a nod to how "toxic" is commonly used in everyday speech, not to move the goalposts.

But I'll move them now, or at least rephrase the question that is puzzling me. If I make ski wax with substances that don't "just" irritate the lungs but can penetrate the blood-brain barrier and also end up in other organs where they can have a toxic effect, and that product is specifically designed to be used in such a way that makes inhalation pretty much a given without PPE, how can I say that my ski wax is a non-toxic product? Presumably the product has to satisfy some sort of regulations to be labelled "non-toxic".

 

[sparty]

With all those rotobrushes going the aerosol dust is a bigger concern than vapor. Especially fluoro - remember that these compounds have insanely low vapor pressure - they are used to lubricate vacuum pumps for that exact reason.

And then when that aerosol is drawn through a lit cigarette...

If you've got a lit cigarette going, the relative impact from the aerosolized wax is probably not significant in expectation of lifespan or lung health.

I wish I had the source handy, but I remember reading a report on a study that was done during the time frame when fluoro waxes were common but relatively new in widespread use; IIRC, the study authors were actually surprised when they concluded that
a) melting fluoros onto the ski is mostly harmless assuming a reasonable iron temp and ventilation
b) roto brushing fluoros is really bad for you in the absence of proper PPE
c) roto brushing non-fluoro waxes is almost as bad
d) burning flouros is really unhealthy (plus it's a waste of good wax)

I wish there was more consistency around using PPE when brushing in the ski racing community. I will admit that I'm not perfect, either, but I try to be good about it anytime I'm brushing a bunch of skis or running an edge grinder of any sort (I'm no doctor, but aerosolized metal doesn't sound like something I want to inhale).

 

[Primoz]

I think this is true if you're doing it a few times a year or even once a weekend for the winter. But I doubt being in a small room waxing for several hours a day with any kind of wax is wise without good ventilation. I'm not talking smoke, but the minor fumes from melting correctly. Which was the situation in top-level skiing for wax tech 20 or so years ago. Even wax dust (not fumes, dust) seems like a bad idea to breath in a lot.

With all those rotobrushes going the aerosol dust is a bigger concern than vapor. Especially fluoro - remember that these compounds have insanely low vapor pressure - they are used to lubricate vacuum pumps for that exact reason.

And then when that aerosol is drawn through a lit cigarette...

And that's what FIS should chase, rather then this stupid fluoro ban. In XC working conditions nowadays, especially if you are working for one of big teams with wax trucks, are there already, so it really doesn't matter anymore what wax you are using. Even if you are working in FIS/organizer provided wax rooms, there are rules for ventilation etc. so conditions are fairly good.
On alpine, things are still same as they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago, and even on events where FIS and organizer provide wax boxes, it's just shipping container without any windows and with no ventilation. Otherwise things are done in basements and garages with no ventilation or anything. Then you add several people and several wax benches to same room, with few more hot irons, bunch of roto brushes and on top of that, machines for edges spitting super small metal dust everywhere, and you get awesome working conditions. And while in xc everyone were using proper gas masks with proper filters for filtering organic and nonorganic fumes 30 years ago already, in alpine, most of people even nowadays are using paper mask or in best case, proper mask with particle filters only. And even that mostly only when doing edges with machines. When neighbor on other side of wax bench does that, noone else has mask on.
But that's not really and issue, and noone bothers about this, but we all bother because of those few kg of fluor, which is used for those little, on big scale completely irrelevant ski waxes.

 

[Primoz]

If you've got a lit cigarette going, the relative impact from the aerosolized wax is probably not significant in expectation of lifespan or lung health.

I wish I had the source handy, but I remember reading a report on a study that was done during the time frame when fluoro waxes were common but relatively new in widespread use; IIRC, the study authors were actually surprised when they concluded that
a) melting fluoros onto the ski is mostly harmless assuming a reasonable iron temp and ventilation
b) roto brushing fluoros is really bad for you in the absence of proper PPE
c) roto brushing non-fluoro waxes is almost as bad
d) burning flouros is really unhealthy (plus it's a waste of good wax)

I wish there was more consistency around using PPE when brushing in the ski racing community. I will admit that I'm not perfect, either, but I try to be good about it anytime I'm brushing a bunch of skis or running an edge grinder of any sort (I'm no doctor, but aerosolized metal doesn't sound like something I want to inhale).

Actually I saw myself when I was still in this business, when one of coaches walked into our wax room with cigarette. We were doing fluoro overlays all evening by then, and ventilation was nonexisting, so you can imagine 4 guys in same (small) room doing almost 100 pairs of skis for test next day, how it was inside. Well that guy was on his back unconcious after his second smoke. Considering he's still alive and fine 20+ years later it most likely didn't left some long term consequences, but that event wasn't really nice.
As for those researches... I remember plenty of Swix researches during last 20 or 30 years every single one claiming their fluoro waxes don't leave any consequences to technicians using them. All blood tests, all lung test and every single other thing they tested was great and couldn't be better even if we would all be just laying on high alpine meadows watching flowers grow instead of spending all days in wax rooms. But then all of a sudden, fluoro is worse thing ever and you die if you just think of melting it with iron. So it beats me what is true now... all those 20 years of researches telling there's no consequences, or current PR telling fluoro is death for everyone and everything.

 

[jt10000]

On alpine, things are still same as they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago, and even on events where FIS and organizer provide wax boxes, it's just shipping container without any windows and with no ventilation. Otherwise things are done in basements and garages with no ventilation or anything. Then you add several people and several wax benches to same room, with few more hot irons, bunch of roto brushes and on top of that, machines for edges spitting super small metal dust everywhere, and you get awesome working conditions. And while in xc everyone were using proper gas masks with proper filters for filtering organic and nonorganic fumes 30 years ago already, in alpine, most of people even nowadays are using paper mask or in best case, proper mask with particle filters only. And even that mostly only when doing edges with machines. When neighbor on other side of wax bench does that, noone else has mask on.
But that's not really and issue, and noone bothers about this, but we all bother because of those few kg of fluor, which is used for those little, on big scale completely irrelevant ski waxes.

Ugggh, that's terrible.

I had no idea it was like that even at the top level in alpine.

 

[Zirbl]

You would think that even if they don't give a shit about the techs, the trainers of racers yet to have their own tech would see the contradiction between regular V02max work and crappy tuning conditions.

@Primoz If FIS and the national federations don't give a fuck, why don't the alpine techs themselves do more to protect themselves? Resignation, lack of awareness, or what?

 

[sparty]

When neighbor on other side of wax bench does that, noone else has mask on.

So f'ing stupid. This is one of the things that drives me nuts—even people who should know better act as if the air in the room isn't shared, and it perpetuates the culture of not giving a f*** about proper PPE when dealing with aerosolized hazards (rotobrushing and edge machines in particular). Getting off-topic for the thread, but I'm starting to wonder if it would actually be possible to change the culture on this.

 

[scott43]

I think it can change. I used to be a mechanic and I see people wearing gloves now and think come on!! But really, it's 100% the smart thing to do and they do it willingly. I still don't get why people care about these waxes being banned. It's certainly the smart thing do.

 

[Frenchman]

And that's what FIS should chase, rather then this stupid fluoro ban.

They could do both...

So f'ing stupid. This is one of the things that drives me nuts—even people who should know better act as if the air in the room isn't shared, and it perpetuates the culture of not giving a f*** about proper PPE when dealing with aerosolized hazards (rotobrushing and edge machines in particular).

Don't see any PPE used at the local ski shop by people spending hours a day with liquid P-tex, waxing, etc.

 

[Primoz]

You would think that even if they don't give a shit about the techs, the trainers of racers yet to have their own tech would see the contradiction between regular V02max work and crappy tuning conditions.

@Primoz If FIS and the national federations don't give a fuck, why don't the alpine techs themselves do more to protect themselves? Resignation, lack of awareness, or what?

No real idea. Something is sort of pride (as stupid as it sounds), as they have been doing this for ages, and they won't look like pussies with masks now. Personally this is really stupid thing, with which I never had issues. I started using proper mask when I was still racing and getting my skis ready (it's even more important then, as you want to be able to push those climbs without some crap from previous evening in your lungs), and when I came to WC as serviceman, I kept it even if noone around was using it and there was plenty of people making fun of me because of it. Most of them changed their mind later, and on the end, every single one was using it all the time. But that was xc.
Then when new guy comes, and everyone are without masks, as it's so much more cool, it's kinda normal they won't be using it either, and few years later, they fit into previous mentioned category.
Another thing is comfort. Just think last few years, how much uproar there was, when people were forced to put little paper napkin infront of their mouth when they went to store. It was almost end of the world. These paper napkins are completely unnoticeable compared to mask with filters for vapors, where breathing is at least to some extend obstructed. Now imagine having proper mask with real filter and you are brushing (not with roto brush) 30 pairs of skis and sweating like during hardest run in summer. I can tell you it's not all that much of fun to have real mask on for 10+h/day, even if it's good one with battery powered ventilator so you can breath sort of normal. Those without ventilators and just with filters are whole lot worse (luckily I didnt use these much).
And then there's third thing... ignorance. There's still plenty of people in this business who have no idea that this stuff is anything but healthy. Add first reason I mentioned and you get someone who will never put mask on regardless what.
But as @scott43 wrote things can change, and things did change, at least in XC. Nowadays, even with all ventilation, and suction mounted to irons and roto brushes, everyone are using masks when anyone in truck/room is waxing. So yes it can change, but it takes some time.

They could do both...

Obviously they can't properly handle not even one task, so it's kinda too much to expect they could handle two

 

[jt10000]

@Primoz Just want to say it's so great hearing the "inside stuff" from you. Even the bad inside stuff. Thank you.