Arizona/New Mexico The 2017/2018 Four Corners Thread

[raisingarizona]

I'm not a Park skier at all but I've always loved watching the Traveling Circus edits. I guess they were here last spring, this is a fun watch.

 

[raisingarizona]

Another one from last season. My buddy Nolan snapped this one of me while we were out skiing in the south side side-country

 

[raisingarizona]

Looking down into the Middle Heck No line. Yes, this is also Arizona!

 

[Fishbowl]

The Arizona Daily Sun is reporting that Coleman has now purchased the Elk Ridge Ski area in Williams. I have never skied there, but used to take the kids snow tubing when we did the Polar Express.

http://azdailysun.com/news/local/sn...cle_de3ad24f-f460-556c-b0a6-53208fb447f1.html

 

[raisingarizona]

The Arizona Daily Sun is reporting that Coleman has now purchased the Elk Ridge Ski area in Williams. I have never skied there, but used to take the kids snow tubing when we did the Polar Express.

http://azdailysun.com/news/local/sn...cle_de3ad24f-f460-556c-b0a6-53208fb447f1.html

Good move, they will kill it with Snow play over there and that will help alleviate the pressure on flagstaff.

 

[Core2]

This is great news. I can't wait to see the improvements.

 

[clong83]

Yeah, interesting move.

I could be totally wrong, but I thought that Elk Ridge proposed a bunch of changes/improvements a few years ago to help them survive, and the forest service denied the application? Of course, that could be wrong, or even if it is true it could just be that the FS didn't want to approve a bunch of improvements on a ski resort that it saw as likely to go bankrupt anyhow.

In any case, good luck to Mr. Coleman in yet another surprising acquisition.

This is great news. I can't wait to see the improvements.

 

[Core2]

If a snow play area with snow making capabilities opened somewhere off I-17 between Sedona and Flagstaff it would make a killing. Put in one of those rope tows for tubes and carve out a few runs on a hillside and you are in the money. Wonder what it would take?

 

[New2]

Yeah, interesting move.

I could be totally wrong, but I thought that Elk Ridge proposed a bunch of changes/improvements a few years ago to help them survive, and the forest service denied the application? Of course, that could be wrong, or even if it is true it could just be that the FS didn't want to approve a bunch of improvements on a ski resort that it saw as likely to go bankrupt anyhow.

In any case, good luck to Mr. Coleman in yet another surprising acquisition.

As I recall, there was a formal proposal 15-20 years ago when it was still Williams Ski Area. They wanted to build a double-double from the current base up to around the 9,000' level on the shoulder of the main peak, cut a bunch of new trails, and add snowmaking. And at some point during the preparation of the Environmental Impact Statement, they found a spotted owl nest within the proposed development footprint, so the ski area owners withdrew the application (after being told, I assume, that they had 0 chance of getting it approved). They sold it not long after, but I don't recall any proposals from the folks who renamed Elk Ridge.

I'm not at all sure how James Coleman's able to make all these ski areas work, and Elk Ridge is definitely another example of one that seems on its face like a money-loser. But so far it looks like he's doing the impossible with Sipapu, Pajarito, and Hesperus... hopefully he can here, too!

 

[raisingarizona]

As I recall, there was a formal proposal 15-20 years ago when it was still Williams Ski Area. They wanted to build a double-double from the current base up to around the 9,000' level on the shoulder of the main peak, cut a bunch of new trails, and add snowmaking. And at some point during the preparation of the Environmental Impact Statement, they found a spotted owl nest within the proposed development footprint, so the ski area owners withdrew the application (after being told, I assume, that they had 0 chance of getting it approved). They sold it not long after, but I don't recall any proposals from the folks who renamed Elk Ridge.

I'm not at all sure how James Coleman's able to make all these ski areas work, and Elk Ridge is definitely another example of one that seems on its face like a money-loser. But so far it looks like he's doing the impossible with Sipapu, Pajarito, and Hesperus... hopefully he can here, too!

Im willing to bet this purchase has little to do with keeping skiing going at Elk Ridge. This is likely all about snow play and a tubing park. When there is snow in Flagstaff the snow play traffic has become ridiculous. This could help move that traffic away from Snowbowl, it's created problems for their skiing customers and it could bring s lot of visitors to Williams which I think is really quiet in the winter. All of those snow players are $ symbols! Coleman and Snowbowl management have been watching those $ symbols drive on by every season.

 

[Dryheat]

Did a little digging around this spurred by @Core2 @clong83 and @raisingarizona

One news article that I overlooked earlier in the summer was
http://azdailysun.com/news/local/wi...cle_316fc5e5-f55f-5798-9ae5-6b36316dcf3b.html

Wing Mountain the "snowplay area" in Flagstaff located west of AZSB on highway 180 won't be operating this year and let their SUP lapse. Per the article, it has Wing Mountain parking spots for 500 cars and notes it exceeds capacity of that on peak days. For comparison, AZSB has 1200 parking spots total (Source: 2005 FEIS). I think @raisingarizona and @New2PDX are spot in the motivation. Try adding even half that number of cars to Snowbowl Dr. and Parking lots and you have an operational disaster. Even if he's able to break even with this venture, the do nothing alternative of adding hundreds of zero revenue cars to AZSB would have likely cost Coleman money at his cash cow. Even more interesting is that Elk Ridge has been offering tubing for at least the last 10 years.

The biggest challenge I see is marketing related and convincing all the would be snowplayers to take I-40 west rather than coming into Flagstaff. I hope Coleman buys a two dozen billboards heading north on I-17 in 4 different languages advertising the amazing snowplay experience in Williams.

Side note, any idea how much, if any of elk ridge is on private land?

If a snow play area with snow making capabilities opened somewhere off I-17 between Sedona and Flagstaff it would make a killing. Put in one of those rope tows for tubes and carve out a few runs on a hillside and you are in the money. Wonder what it would take?

I pulled out a topographical map to look at where this might work as its very intriguing to me. I narrowed my search to areas that were >7500ft in elevation. There's really only one stretch of land that I saw that qualifies...Mormon Mountain/Lake area. If you're willing to go down to 7000ft, there's some land between Munds Park and Mountainaire that might fit the bill. The hill just east of the I-17 on 78 or 78A gets interesting

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0068731,-111.6706902,15z/data=!5m1!1e4

 

[Core2]

I pulled out a topographical map to look at where this might work as its very intriguing to me. I narrowed my search to areas that were >7500ft in elevation. There's really only one stretch of land that I saw that qualifies...Mormon Mountain/Lake area. If you're willing to go down to 7000ft, there's some land between Munds Park and Mountainaire that might fit the bill.

Anywhere off I-17 would work. The closer to Mexico, the better. You only need nightly cold temps to blow snow. Water and power are the bigger challenge. I worked at this place in NM as a teenager. It sits at 7500 ft below Ski Apache. A similar place with a lift will kill near Flag:

 

[clong83]

Anywhere off I-17 would work. The closer to Mexico, the better. You only need nightly cold temps to blow snow. Water and power are the bigger challenge. I worked at this place in NM as a teenager. It sits at 7500 ft below Ski Apache. A similar place with a lift will kill near Flag:


View attachment 31666 View attachment 31667

Cloudcroft?

 

[Core2]

Cloudcroft?

The pics are Ruidoso Winter Park. Cloudcroft recently re-opened and they have a tubing operation and skiing when conditions permit.

 

[New2]

On a different note, the discussion about the new 6-pack going in at Snowbasin has me wondering what perspectives are like now among the Snowbowl crowd. I've talked to a good number of folks that are skeptical that Snowbasin's Wildcat 6-pack is a good move... and I seem to recall lots of similar doubts over at EpicSki before the Grand Canyon Express went in. How has it played out at Snowbowl (I haven't been there in almost 10 years now)?

The biggest challenge I see is marketing related and convincing all the would be snowplayers to take I-40 west rather than coming into Flagstaff. I hope Coleman buys a two dozen billboards heading north on I-17 in 4 different languages advertising the amazing snowplay experience in Williams.

Side note, any idea how much, if any of elk ridge is on private land?

It's all USFS land. And there's no private land particularly close. I don't know what Elk Ridge's parking capacity is, but it's not 500 cars... not even close, I think. Maybe Coleman should put up billboards advertising the sledding at Fort Tuthill... at least they have the parking.

I pulled out a topographical map to look at where this might work as its very intriguing to me. I narrowed my search to areas that were >7500ft in elevation. There's really only one stretch of land that I saw that qualifies...Mormon Mountain/Lake area. If you're willing to go down to 7000ft, there's some land between Munds Park and Mountainaire that might fit the bill. The hill just east of the I-17 on 78 or 78A gets interesting

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0068731,-111.6706902,15z/data=!5m1!1e4

Anywhere off I-17 would work. The closer to Mexico, the better. You only need nightly cold temps to blow snow. Water and power are the bigger challenge. I worked at this place in NM as a teenager. It sits at 7500 ft below Ski Apache. A similar place with a lift will kill near Flag:

I agree with Core2... you don't need to be all that high so long as you have the water and power for nighttime snowmaking. You also don't need a hill... the tube lanes in Southern California (Mountain High, Snow Valley, and Big Bear) do great business, and I think they're all in the 25- to 40-foot vertical range. And you want kind of a hollow, with an uphill at both sides (so sledders don't fly off into the parking lot/down the mountain), so even with a flat parcel you can do a bit of earth-moving dig down a bit and build a berm on one side.

What you do need is parking. Wing Mountain struggled with lots of bad social media reviews because its 500-car lot would fill up so often. Still, there's probably no way around that... when there's fresh snow on the weekend or a holiday, you could probably fill pretty much any lot no matter how big if the rest of your operation were smooth. Existing parking is basically Fort Tuthill, the airport, and the golf courses. The golf courses could only handle a fraction of the traffic, and it would likely really upset the homeowners. The airport probably has extra parking spots most of the time, but it's also not a huge lot and they need the parking for airport business, rather than tourists. So Fort Tuthill really seems like it's the best bet in the near term... I wonder if the Flagstaff Snow Park folks will ever be able to swing snowmaking and magic carpets.

And if you owned 4 acres of private land along I-17 (with water, power, and the freedom to build), would you 1) turn it into a giant parking lot with a tiny snow play area and concession stand, 2) subdivide it and sell it for housing, or 3) use it to run cattle or live as a hermit or whatever your lifelong dream is? The private landowners all along here have all opted for #2 or #3, and I think it makes a lot of sense. And it'd be an uphill battle to get any government entity to approve a big parking lot and snowplay area in relatively pristine forest/meadow... just look at all the on-again-off-again efforts to get formalized snowplay on McMillan Mesa in Flag.

I think probably the only viable options for new mid- to large-scale snowplay in the area are the old Christensen rest areas just north of Munds Park (this is Forest Service land... I don't understand how ADOT got away with just abandoning it to rot and vandals--but someone who's willing to bulldoze one or both sides would likely get the forest service's ear) or some parcel in Camp Navajo (now that it's supposed to be generating revenue for the state, leasing a little corner might be the most promising avenue).

 

[Dryheat]

Forest Service seeks public input on issuance of new permit to operate Elk Ridge Ski Area near Williams
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd561947.pdf

 

[Dryheat]

Powder Alliance is back on for Snowbowl Pass but not the Powder Pass

Some, but not all, of the 16-17 partner resorts that had gone missing over the summer are back. Brianhead is notably still missing.

 

[raisingarizona]

It sure is warm and dry around here, it doesn't feel much like winter is coming. This year might be a Sedona riding winter. There are worse things.

 

[Core2]

Some S.CO and NM dustings on social media today. Nice to see cooler temps and weather again. Any white up at Snowbowl yet @raisingarizona ?

 

[kimberlin]

I don't live as close to Snowbowl as @raisingarizona, but I can see the mountain from my house in Prescott. From what I can tell there has not been much activity weatherwise to see how Snowbowl can open by Nov. 10. They've been trying to blow snow haven't they? Temperatures are pretty darn warm right now. Last week I was up near the mountain and it's brown.