Are Rossignol and Lange Boots the Same?

[jmeb]

Don't know about now, but in the recent past Rossi and Lange have shared some consumer models as well. I have Rossignol B-Squad Carbon 130s that are the same exact shape as Lange RX130 LVs. Slightly different plastic and hardware, exact same molds. Which is good because I needed to steel the cuff off of one when I broke the other. Soles are direct swaps as well.

 

[Comish]

Pretty sure those two boots are the same, but I’m unsure if they are the same as current boots. Yes, there have been a bunch of changes/different models, but I think they went back to an older design (changed, then changed back). I know someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think your Nordica info is wrong. The pre-EDT boots were 95 mm. The metal EDT boots were 92. The current boots are very similar last to the original boots, 130 is probably slighter wider than 150 due to material thickness. If your Nordicas work for you, consider a Zipfit or Intuition liner.

So according to this site, http://nordicaskioutlet.com/browse.php?lang=en&scat=6&season=2

the '11 and '12 EDT WC models were 95mm. Don't know about '13, but the '14 listed shows it as a 93mm last which jives with what Brent at Park City Ski Boot mentioned.
My understanding is the '11 had a metal = cold boot board, and the '12 was changed to carbon. I believe the old skool SOFT was a 93mm last, but don't have site to reference on that one. Based on the amount of grinding I did on that one I would agree its a smaller last than the '12 EDT WC boot I have now.

 

[trailtrimmer]

No first hand experience, but I’ve heard a few people say the white plastic is a bit softer, but perhaps a little less temperature sensitive.

Interesting, I've heard that the RS130 wide was from the same mold as the RX130. My green and white RX130 play boots are definitely softer than my RS130 racers. If the Rossi boot uses the same thermoplastic as the white Lange cuff, I can see it being softer.

 

[BGreen]

@Comish I think you’re right about published, but not sure about actual. The metal boots were narrow, and the material was thin. Keep in mind sizes are not consistent — a 7 may be much wider than a 6, or same width and just longer. The metal boots were a special level of cold, and extremely reactive. I think those boots were only a good idea on paper.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Pretty sure those two boots are the same, but I’m unsure if they are the same as current boots. Yes, there have been a bunch of changes/different models, but I think they went back to an older design (changed, then changed back). I know someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think your Nordica info is wrong. The pre-EDT boots were 95 mm. The metal EDT boots were 92. The current boots are very similar last to the original boots, 130 is probably slighter wider than 150 due to material thickness. If your Nordicas work for you, consider a Zipfit or Intuition liner.

IIRC when Lange went to the "baby blue" boot it (and its Rossi twin) it was a different shell. When they switched back to the current darker blue it went back to similar to the original shell and that is still the same as current version. A few liner changes and some graphics but same shell.

The current Nordica Dobie WC/Tecnica R is nominally a 92 shell and pretty much the same as the old matt black plug (you know the one where the 150 was stamped "soft" on the shell!!). Not exactly sure what the width was on the metal boot board version or when it changed back (2013-14??) but it was cold with a capital F - even colder than the normal Dobie (I can just see the designers now "hey, our boot is really cold anyway so lets just mess with them and put a metal sole plate in so they will REALLY know what cold is.....)...

 

[Muleski]

Yeah, Nordica went through some interesting interactions when they decided to put "race boots" in the hands of retailers. Probably the best and smartest move and a good boot for the masses was the Dobermann Pro 130. It was about a 130 Flex, and had a 95mm last in the reference boot size. Liner was "OK". Many ended up with lace up liners in them. It was NOT their full on Dobermann, and not a race boot. My son was a comp'd athlete in the matte black boot, and I scored a pair of the Pro's. Good boot for me for many years.

The Matte Black boot pretty much went away. They may have moulded it in the old plastic, but I know guys who were skiing at the WC level who were in the same boot, new glossy plastic, and didn't think it was the same. It didn't time the same. That started the bring back the matte black requests. That original, "real" Dobie is the class 92mm boot. Much imitated. Used by many "undercover." It's been back for about 6 seasons with both a Nordica and Tecnica brand. It's also now made in a variety of flexes and a wide range of sizes. Serves a LOT of people. Stiffest one that I have seen was stamped "180", and I'm not sure that it did the racer any favors.

So, going from memory, or misery, around 2005, Nordica rolled out some interesting Dobermann boots. We had the boot with the abducted stance, "the aggressor." I recall hearing of people trying the boot in NZ and raving about "how great it felt, and how slow it timed." Depending on your needs and goals, it could be a good boot. My son experimented with them, as did many other guys for a whole month in Chile, as there was thought that softened they could be killer speed boots. Macro Sullivan used them for a very short while. Then back to the straight last {much like the Fischer guys}.

The 'EDT" experiment was a really strange gimmick. Hey, it's marketing. If we're selling "race boots" through dealers, let's do something new. This metal plate below the zeppa will really strengthen the boot sole. Yeah. Frostbite City. There were some older kids in the East who were not in the pipeline to get the now "older" straight last boot, and tried to ski in those things. Nothing better than being at a place like Whiteface in January with those things. Ugh. Then they moved to the composite plate {or whatever it was called} and my understanding was the general consensus was that it did nothing. Meanwhile Atomic was killing it with the white boot, Lange was doing just fine, etc. Head had the boot rolled out.

That around 2011 led to the demand to please bring back the matte black boot. We don't care what you call it. Bring it back in terms of availability, and they did. If the boots fit your foot, hard to do much better. And there is a lot to work with there. The boots ca be made to fit many feet. A lot of people affiliated with Nordica on the race side feel that they could have saved a lot of money and time if they had just stuck with the matte black "original" Dobie. You can't imagine how many nearly brand new boots we pitched into a dumpster.

Meanwhile our daughter was in a Lange plug for 12 years. Boots had very little change year to year, and worked for her. @ScotsSkier is right on the money. The baby blue boot was similar, with some tweaks. The material of the race boots was a bit different. Took some tweaking to get flex dialed. They also seemed to be more prone to cracking, at last among our friends. When they went back to the darker blue, guessing around 2010, I'm pretty sure that the molds were the original design and the shape was identical between Rossi and Lange. The material, according to those who can actually feel it {and for whom it matters} is not. The Rossi is generally acknowledged to be a bit softer in the ZA, ZB boots. Rossi clearly makes some very stiff boots and there are plenty on the WC. But we also see some Rossi skiers who prefer the blue boot. Not sure if Rossi would admit, publicly, that there's a difference. Publicly.

All personal preference.

I ski in a LV RX130 these days. It's the same exact shell design as the RS130. Mine are a few years old. They are softer, for sure. Not by a lot. I asked my boot guy which I should go with {we go back 20+ years} and his response was "I went green as it looks cooler according to my six year old......" Sound advice. I went green. Then threw out the liners......

 

[ScotsSkier]

Hmmm, my Tecnica R's must be really soft.....one pair is stamped 12 and the other pair is stamped 13.....


Oh, BTW, i noticed someone with a new pair of Dobies that seems to have gone back to a more Matte finish!. I still have my old matt ones sitting here. Guess i should really give them a try again!

 

[Muleski]

Hmmm, my Tecnica R's must be really soft.....one pair is stamped 12 and the other pair is stamped 13.....


Oh, BTW, i noticed someone with a new pair of Dobies that seems to have gone back to a more Matte finish!. I still have my old matt ones sitting here. Guess i should really give them a try again!

I think the left mold guy is employee #12, and the right is #13. Do they turn better in one direction?

The original Matte black ones are classics. I'd save them for your museum.....unless they ski better!

 

[Primoz]

Little update from my side (even though I guess my original answer was not in this thread, as I can't find it ). Few weeks ago I had a beer with few friends, and especially one of them know this stuff first hand, as he's Rossi/Lange guy doing boots for pretty much everyone on their WC team. There was difference between Lange and Rossi in past, but nowadays it's exactly same boot. Exactly same plastic, exactly same molds, only difference is color. Sometimes color pigment can change things a bit, but he said today, when you work on boot, even "dust" coming from grinding feels same on Lange and Rossi (it didn't before). So nowadays, it's for sure exactly same boot. But just to be clear, it's about WC stock boots not about store boots. Those can be different thing.

 

[BeetleJuice]

There are some 2015 and 2016 Rossignol Hero WC ZA/ZB for heavily discounted prices right now. Do they fit exactly like the Lange ZA/ZB from 2015 or 2016, and do they still come with that nice cork flow liner?

How do you guys recommend fitting a plug boot? Go with the smallest size (2 sizes down from measured length) I can tolerate, and grind out as needed, or go one size down, and do less grinding/punching? I am a heavier individual, who skis hard and has a thin ankle and low instep. I have tried on both 27.5 and 28.5 Lange ZBs from 2016 (dark blue with black/yellow buckles), but I measure almost 29 on the device. 28.5, right out of the box I could ski the ZB's. I have such a thin foot, I don't need do any work to them, and actually had to put my footbed in the 28.5 to take up some top-to-bottom volume. The 27.5 is tight, but I sat in store with it for like 30 minutes, before I felt numbness. Sitting, not skiing with my heel in the pocket and toes off the front. Wondering if I should just grind out a 27.5, or go with the 28.5 and not need much fitting. Both felt good, but the 27.5 felt like I could customize the smaller size to my liking, and have a glove-like fitting boot. Any help will be appreciated

Thanks.

 

[jmeb]

There are some 2015 and 2016 Rossignol Hero WC ZA/ZB for heavily discounted prices right now. Do they fit exactly like the Lange ZA/ZB from 2015 or 2016, and do they still come with that nice cork flow liner?

How do you guys recommend fitting a plug boot? Go with the smallest size (2 sizes down from measured length) I can tolerate, and grind out as needed, or go one size down, and do less grinding/punching? I am a heavier individual, who skis hard and has a thin ankle and low instep. I have tried on both 27.5 and 28.5 Lange ZBs from 2016 (dark blue with black/yellow buckles), but I measure almost 29 on the device. 28.5, right out of the box I could ski the ZB's. I have such a thin foot, I don't need do any work to them, and actually had to put my footbed in the 28.5 to take up some top-to-bottom volume. The 27.5 is tight, but I sat in store with it for like 30 minutes, before I felt numbness. Sitting, not skiing with my heel in the pocket and toes off the front. Wondering if I should just grind out a 27.5, or go with the 28.5 and not need much fitting. Both felt good, but the 27.5 felt like I could customize the smaller size to my liking, and have a glove-like fitting boot. Any help will be appreciated

Thanks.

Whoa. Betegeuse on PugSki?

 

[martyg]

Here's what you need to know about boots:

- Virtually all shells are molded by 1 of 4 factories in the world. Scarpa and Delbello own their factories, the rest contract out.
- When not molding ski boots, those factories do counter seasonal work for shoe companies and the auto industry.
- Molds are expensive, so it makes sense to economize.
- Virtually all of the liners are sewn by 1 of 2 family businesses.
- Virtually all buckles are made in 1 factory.
- Virtually all brands send parts to Yugoslavia for assembly.

By what fits. Like every other aspects of the supply chain in ski / outdoor there are very few factories churning out all of the gear.

 

[BGreen]

Here's what you need to know about boots:

- Virtually all shells are molded by 1 of 4 factories in the world. Scarpa and Delbello own their factories, the rest contract out.
- When not molding ski boots, those factories do counter seasonal work for shoe companies and the auto industry.
- Molds are expensive, so it makes sense to economize.
- Virtually all of the liners are sewn by 1 of 2 family businesses.
- Virtually all buckles are made in 1 factory.
- Virtually all brands send parts to Yugoslavia for assembly.

By what fits. Like every other aspects of the supply chain in ski / outdoor there are very few factories churning out all of the gear.

You make it sound like all boots are the same, which couldn’t be further from the truth, regardless of what factory makes them.

@BeetleJuice Those boots are the same (R2006). Pick the color you prefer in the size that fits. As @martyg wrote about, buy what fits. Put your foot in the shell with your insoles. If you are touching plastic, you are going to need work and may consider a larger size. If you were in the boots buckled for 30 min that’s impressive. If you are not a racer, you might consider the 28.5 with a custom liner. Of course, I cant see your feet or the fit over the internet, so I can’t really say much beyond that. Boots need to fit correctly. Tighter is not necessarily better.

 

[martyg]

You make it sound like all boots are the same, which couldn’t be further from the truth, regardless of what factory makes them.

@BeetleJuice Those boots are the same (R2006). Pick the color you prefer in the size that fits. As @martyg wrote about, buy what fits. Put your foot in the shell with your insoles. If you are touching plastic, you are going to need work and may consider a larger size. If you were in the boots buckled for 30 min that’s impressive. If you are not a racer, you might consider the 28.5 with a custom liner. Of course, I cant see your feet or the fit over the internet, so I can’t really say much beyond that. Boots need to fit correctly. Tighter is not necessarily better.

Nope. It is just that people get too hung up on brand - regardless of product category.

Very, very few brands have complete ownership of their process from white paper through delivery.

In several cases two competing brands have outsourced to the same designer, produced in the same factory, same production line, same QA process. One product line had brand X on it, one had brand Y.

Buy what fits.

 

[markojp]

You make it sound like all boots are the same, which couldn’t be further from the truth, regardless of what factory makes them.

@BeetleJuice Those boots are the same (R2006). Pick the color you prefer in the size that fits. As @martyg wrote about, buy what fits. Put your foot in the shell with your insoles. If you are touching plastic, you are going to need work and may consider a larger size. If you were in the boots buckled for 30 min that’s impressive. If you are not a racer, you might consider the 28.5 with a custom liner. Of course, I cant see your feet or the fit over the internet, so I can’t really say much beyond that. Boots need to fit correctly. Tighter is not necessarily better.

FWIW, I fit a gentleman today in a boot. His feet touched the shells in 2 critical points in each boot. If I sized him in a boot that needed no space, he'd have been in about a size 32 high volume shell. In the end, he ended up in a 29.5 mid volume boot with a footbed and some alignment mods inside the boot, 1st met bunion punches, abit around the 5th met heads, and work around the medial ankle. There is no boot on the market that would have worked for him out of the box. It does everyone here a disservice to give anything more than very generic advice when we don't have eyes on the person nor specific product/fitting knowledge that can only happen in the shop with a competent fitter. Your last three sentences are 100% spot on.

 

[BGreen]

size 32

I didn’t mean that if the foot is touching plastic go up a size, just that the plastic needs to move. Just about every surface of my plug boots has been stretched or ground. I need to grind some toe room on my coachy boots, but I’m too lazy.

 

[BGreen]

Nope. It is just that people get too hung up on brand - regardless of product category.

That’s fair. Further, I have zero knowledge of boots outside of race boots. I’ve been surprised how different various sizes of boots in a line can be. Also certain boots flex completely differently, for example Nordica vs Dalbello move in totally different ways. Also the qualities of the plastics can vary markedly from highly reactive to highly absorptive and everything in between. Then on the other side you have boots from one company, say that uses red plastic, model a boot after the characteristics of another boot, say one that uses blue/white plastic.

 

[markojp]

I didn’t mean that if the foot is touching plastic go up a size, just that the plastic needs to move. Just about every surface of my plug boots has been stretched or ground. I need to grind some toe room on my coachy boots, but I’m too lazy.

When looking at a boot wall, a common question is "which boot do you use?" or, " which is the best boot?". FWIW, in the shop we rarely mention anything about personal gear choices as they most often aren't germane to the conversation or at all correct for customers. The answer to the first is " Well, our feet and missions are probably very different. Our job is to help you find the best boot for you. " The second, " all of these are good boots, but most are 'wrong' for both you and me. Let me help you find athe best boot for you. " Again, we have to be very cautious and avoid equating any more than generic and general observations regarding boot fit to avoid confusion. Personal prononun use is always suspect. We try to coach less experience staff from using them and instead to ask more questions.

(and FWIW, yes, many like yourself expecting higher performance out of their gear spend more time working on optimization than the average recreational skier. That's a given. We just have to be careful to make no assumptions that confuse our own narratives with that of a customer. )