14U kids alpine racing -- Need help!

[Muleski]

@hlc, I have seen the question asked a few times, but I must be overlooking the answer. Much of what you might consider is based on where you live, and where you ski. It sounds like you are in New England, maybe Western MA, or CT?

Assuming that your kids stay at home for high school years, can they ski during the week? Does your local high school, or even middle school have a ski team? Does the local hill that you mention have a race program?
When you talk about "heading to VT", do you mean every weekend, or are you even thing of potentially a "full time" program? Could be winter only, or full academic year.

I think I know what you're contemplating, but I don't want to assume anything.

I have a fair amount of experience with this.....across a broad horizon. There are SO many ways for a kid to be exposed to skis racing, and to really have fun with it. And to be honest, having fun, making friends, and loving a great life long sport are what counts.

If the term "racing in college" can cover a very wide horizon. So many ways to have fun with it.

Bit more info would be helpful. If you want to be a bit under the radar, PM me or some of us.

I will say that this is largely driven by expectations, location and budget. I sense that you know that. even at his age, he can make great progress as a skier and a ski racer. My race days started at about age six, and as a competitor ended after college, other than a few fun races. I have friends who began to race in their 30's and are more into it than ever in their 60's and 70's. There are ways for everybody to enjoy "ski racing."

But, it can be a challenge, and you want it to be enjoyable!

 

[dustyfog]

Muleski is a pro racer himself; and he and others are very experienced, and lived the life themselves, so their perspectives are the best.

So I will add I hope a constructive few sentences as a parent of a racer, and visuals in motion to help you, I hope.
Think of this as "Why kids like to be on a Ski Racing Team ?" It is not about the winning really, no really!
Quote from your query : "
Anyway, this year my 12 y/o asked if he could join a ski team for next season (would be U14). Obviously it would be a huge family commitment for many reasons, but mainly the distance involved means separating the family for the winter weekends.
He is a good skier - but having never seen a u14 race before, I have no idea where he would stack up. He's never tried gates and he's never skied on racing skis. But he's technically decent (lots of lessons) and not afraid of speed - but again what I think as fast, is probably slow compared to other boys his age.

SO... is it worth the commitment? Obviously you can't really answer that question but I am looking for some input from people who have been there, done that. I get it -- he won't be an olympic athlete, as from what I understand those kids have already been racing for 3-5 years by the time they are 13, but will he even have a shot at the podium at any point in the year -- or will he always be at the bottom of the bunch getting discouraged?"

So in steps:

• What is U14 ski racing like ? Take a gander at a sample of pretty good (Actually very good) U14 racers at a race in Massachusetts in 2016 : It's a fun clip, that's a promise -
• Now about the team spirit, here is a clip if you simply listen to it, the skiing is secondary, just listen to the team-mates, the cheering is almost primal, and when the skier has a blow-out, the pain felt by the parents is palpable, and when he fights to stay in the race, because he never lets go unless physically unable...the cheering and relief, the clapping by strangers, warms any heart:
• And note the parent of the skier in the second clip (and he is one of the skiers in the first clip, and if you cannot guess, he is one who loses his nine lives at the second slide-out/lean-in!) was nowhere near the action. All these films were made by other parents on the team - now that is the life of ski racers and their parents. A great bond.
• When the season ends, everyone, the racers, the parents are low, as the endorphin rush is not going to be forthcoming, the racing to hill, the frantic prep, the tuning, the gear, the scramble, the yelling to wake up, go to the bathroom, all that sort of comes to a close as the curtain comes down on the season. It really is a high, and one has to live through the withdrawal symptoms!
• Hope this was illuminating.

That is why this ski racer races. And that is why the poor parent schlepps religiously every weekend about 300 miles all in, for these moments. Can't buy them, have to live them. It is the Ski Racing Team which drives this racer, a bit Norwegian in spirit !-)

There is no way, you are waking up a 'normal' teen at ungodly hours to go race at some hill somewhere in some backwoods area without the pals. Now as they grow older and now, in the U16's there is a natural weeding out, but the friends are what keep this racer in the mix. There are kids with admirable determination who become fantastic skiers and faster and further, but most I assure you enjoy being in the mix, whatever they feel in that gate, and the realization with every training run, and race, they are better skiers. And it's a lifelong sport.

 

[Muleski]

Muleski is a pro racer himself. And it's a lifelong sport.

Great post!

Sentence one.....no. But I've been around the competitive port for over 50 years. I'm the second of three generations to take it pretty seriously. Big part of our lives.

Sentence two. ABSOLUTELY. I think the goal of most parents would be to expose their kids to skiing, hope they grow to love it, and stick with it for a lifetime.

So many ways to enjoy and experience ski racing.......but many more to experience and love "just skiing!"

 

[coskigirl]

Great post!

Sentence one.....no. But I've been around the competitive port for over 50 years. I'm the second of three generations to take it pretty seriously. Big part of our lives.

Sentence two. ABSOLUTELY. I think the goal of most parents would be to expose their kids to skiing, hope they grow to love it, and stick with it for a lifetime.

So many ways to enjoy and experience ski racing.......but many more to experience and love "just skiing!"

YES! When I coached my athletes were much younger but my goal was always having fun while becoming better skiers. I often said that if none of them took the racing much further but could ski the whole mountain with their family and have fun doing it that I'd feel my coaching days were a success. Several athletes have taken it further and some are now racing at the FIS level and a few have moved on to big mountain which are fun to watch from afar but far more of them I hear about just enjoying the sport on a recreational level with their friends and families.

 

[crgildart]

Most Americans do not have good enough access to skiing, but 5% in absolute numbers is still larger than Austria's skiing population. My question would be, if you have good skiing access and are an active skier, how accessible is ski racing in the USA relative to Austria?

I'd be willing to bet that every high school in Austria near a ski resort has a high school race team (or three?). Only a few high schools in my area had race teams and we had about a half dozen ski hills nearby. My high school was one of the largest in the state, was 10 miles from a ski hill with a world famous race program, yet my high school did not have a race team. Only a few in the metro area did. I bet that's different in Austria..

Now Hockey??? Hockey we had big time, several state titles..

 

[Ohioskier]

@crgildart We have a small ski area that’s right off the interstate loop that goes around cincinnati and we have only one high school that has a race team. Many ski clubs but only one that races against themselves mostly for fun. All abilities show up and the parents set up tailgate tents with food and Powerade at bottom. Nothing like the more serious USSA races but they get nastar scores and have a blast. These kids might start late but get good instruction and a life long sport.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Less than 5% of Americans ski, over 35% for Austrians & Swiss...no doubt we would have more on the podium if more were exposed to the sport and had the funds to train.

Five percent of the American population is approximately the same number of people as the entire populations of Austria and Switzerland combined. Whatever the reasons for the modest overall results achieved by US alpine skiers, lack of numbers is not among them.

 

[Muleski]

No doubt the skiing population is, percentage wise, in a different plane in Europe. However, they way that their "cream rises to the top" is not a great deal differently than it is in North America. There are ski academies in Austria, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland. They are typically run with a lot of input from the national ski federations, and with programming designed to get "kids" ready to compete on the Europa Cup, then progress to the World Cup. Some of the kids are fully funded in these pursuits. Some have parents paying tuition as well as room and board. They aren't as expensive as our residential ski academies, as they are funded differently. But they aren't inconsequential in terms of cost. 25K Euros, or so? Some of these academies also accept student-athletes from other countries. Stams, in Austria, has.

Now here's where it might be offensive to some. Basically your child does not get admitted to one of these academies unless they have already demonstrated very high potential and drive. Many are kids who have skied, in alpine towns, since they could walk. Many have parents heavily involved in the sport. The sports federations identify some of these kids at very young ages, and they work to develop them. These young Europeans who we see already having success on the WC came though this system. So, no they aren't skiing on teams that are part of what we refer to as high school, and that programming. Some private schools do have ski teams and compete with others. These schools, many in Switzerland, are incredibly expensive. We know a young lady in the equivalent of our 10th grade, and I think the total cost is $90K a year.

So unless this has dramatically changed, they aren't planning on finding a lot of late bloomers and such. They are even more exclusive, earlier. When you are looking at a ski academy, you have either been already pre-selected, or the first cut you need to make is as a skier and athlete. This is totally differs than our options for ski racing during the high school years, including most of our ski academies.

I know that there are regional races in all of the European countries, and I presume that there are fun races that may be run at local clubs. I know there is a LOT at younger, pre-teen ages. But they get pretty serious pretty fast. My observation as well, is that these kids as U14's and U16's are serious competitors. Very driven to do well. It used to be that you could look from these ski hills, and see the smokey factories in the valleys. The motivation to ski fast, and to not be a laborer in the factory, or farming your family's small plot drove may ski racers. May not as much these days. But.....the culture used to be completely different. I spent seven childhood years in Europe, and saw it.

Just as it is for coaches, instructors, guides. etc. Serious professions there. Many multi generational.

And I agree. The reasons for the USA's current low point in WC skiing does not have to do with numbers. It is essential, though to have reasonable expectations for kids, including when they really need to be all in on this. The Executive Director of one of the biggest race programs in their country {and Mikaela's youth coach} has been quite vocal that we need to have kids on snow 4 plus days a week at an early age. Like 7-8. Knowing full well that it's impossible for most. That's a bit over the top to me.

Now those kids may be on a different path, and may "select out" along the way. For those where that path makes no sense, there are so many ways to learn and enjoy to ski race. At almost any age!

It does not all need to be about "elite", racing FIS and NorAMs, racing in the NCAA, and aspiring somewhat realistically to the USST, or darn close. That's one end of the spectrum. It frankly is probably nowhere as much fun as the other end, and it's a ton more costly and stressful.

Nowhere is the spectrum wider than in "college racing." In some programs you have kids on twin tips who have never previously raced. And they have a BLAST. In others you have former,current and future World Cup racers. Still fun for them.

 

[x10003q]

Five percent of the American population is approximately the same number of people as the entire populations of Austria and Switzerland combined. Whatever the reasons for the modest overall results achieved by US alpine skiers, lack of numbers is not among them.

Of course it is lack of numbers. Unlike Austria, the best US athletes are not skiing and are not drawn to skiing. In Austria, successful ski racers are national heroes that become part of the historical culture. In the US, successful ski racers are unknown unless they are highly photogenic, well marketed, and in some cases outspoken.

The reasons for the modest results are baseball, football, basketball, soccer, hockey, lacrosse, softball, track, tennis, volleyball, swimming, gymnastics/dance - available in your back yard, driveway, school and town.

 

[Muleski]

Of course it is lack of numbers. Unlike Austria, the best US athletes are not skiing and are not drawn to skiing. In Austria, successful ski racers are national heroes that become part of the historical culture. In the US, successful ski racers are unknown unless they are highly photogenic, well marketed, and in some cases outspoken.

The reasons for the modest results are baseball, football, basketball, soccer, hockey, lacrosse, softball, track, tennis, volleyball, swimming, gymnastics/dance - available in your back yard, driveway, school and town.

It's not numbers. At the older youth age groups, we are as deep and competitive as anybody. We have, even historically, done as well as anybody at the biggest events such as Junior Worlds. Winners, medalists. Not as strong this year as the Swiss, but we have plenty of athletes.

BTW...last I checked, you do not have to be a top 1% athlete to win on the WC. See LV, MS, and our best make, Ligety.

It's not about numbers. Not the issue, at all.

 

[Corgski]

I am curious to the degree that Austria supports casual participation as suggested by @crgildart. The example of ski racing for everyone given by @Ohioskier does not seem typical to me. In mainstream sports there is a general understanding that a lot of the viewership (hence money) comes from people who had some connection to the sport, even if at a low level. For example, Major League Baseball is dependent on the health of Little League even though Little League is not the path to Major League (this is recognized in articles about the decline of baseball). It is very different approaching a sport where low level participants are seen as being of value, even if it is pure commercialism, than approaching a sport where your low status in the sport is emphasized. How often does one encounter "Nastar is a joke" statements, relative to "Little League is a joke"?

@Muleski, people are going to react negatively even if they have no interest in pursuing ski racing at the highest levels. If you have a kid who wants to participate in any activity at anything beyond the lowest level you are going to encounter some (hopefully less extreme) form of these arguments. By being the reluctant bearer of these arguments, I guess you encounter some projected resentment. My question would be whether this is a systemic requirement or development requirement?

Reading is a classic example of the development vs systemic issue (no, am not saying skiing is like reading). Research has shown that pushing early reading (big in America, less so in other countries) actually has a negative impact on reading skills. Basically, kids learn to read the wrong way because their brains are not ready to learn the correct way. This type of push tends to be based on correlations that show that academically successful kids learned to read early. This is not hard to explain away, nevertheless early reading became aggressively pushed to the point where it became a systemic requirement. By this I mean everyone has to play along even if they know it is harmful, otherwise they are going to have a kid who is considered behind and requires remediation.

I have no idea whether this applies in ski racing. Maybe early intense training is necessary for developmental reasons. The arguments that I am seeing seem somewhat ambiguous on this.

 

[markojp]

I'd be willing to bet that every high school in Austria near a ski resort has a high school race team (or three?). Only a few high schools in my area had race teams and we had about a half dozen ski hills nearby. My high school was one of the largest in the state, was 10 miles from a ski hill with a world famous race program, yet my high school did not have a race team. Only a few in the metro area did. I bet that's different in Austria..

Now Hockey??? Hockey we had big time, several state titles..

FWIW and not sure if it's still the same, but HS ski racing in MI was popular in terms of number of schools participating. Even USSA skiers participated. The calendars where always written to avoid conflicts between the two.

 

[Muleski]

There is HS school and even middle school racing all over New England. And,yes many ski USSA and are in weekend ski programs. I am of the understanding that numbers are strong. The kids that I know involved really love it.

 

[Sibhusky]

Oddly, there is no high school team here (there used to be, and I feel like this was a state decision?). I'm guessing it's because of the fact that there are not really local races, and most schools in the more Eastern part of the state have nothing near them, the mountains are in the Western half. Everything is an overnight for the mountain team. The high school works with the mountain's race team on missed days and assignments, however. I'm guessing the cost factor was a big deal and since there's no gates collections for "home races", there was no balancing revenue. Most of the schools they play football against would have been using the same mountain. I'm sure from the mountain's perspective that was a cost as well. They already host races for the team, beer league races, special Olympics events (although they cut back a bit on that this season due to state changes in how competition will work), snow board races, slopestyle events, etc. We used to have NorAms, no more.

The team's foundation does help with poorer kids' expenses and looks to keep costs down with fundraisers, but it's expensive to have a kid in racing.

 

[S.H.]

Now those kids may be on a different path, and may "select out" along the way. For those where that path makes no sense, there are so many ways to learn and enjoy to ski race. At almost any age!

It does not all need to be about "elite", racing FIS and NorAMs, racing in the NCAA, and aspiring somewhat realistically to the USST, or darn close. That's one end of the spectrum. It frankly is probably nowhere as much fun as the other end, and it's a ton more costly and stressful.

Nowhere is the spectrum wider than in "college racing." In some programs you have kids on twin tips who have never previously raced. And they have a BLAST. In others you have former,current and future World Cup racers. Still fun for them.

Anecdotally, based on my experience as an athlete and a coach on both ends of this spectrum (before/after injury, fulltime vs weekend coach) ... more people have fun at the non-elite end. At the elite end, those who tend to have the most fun are those whose level of fun is not directly tied to their performance relative to the field.

At the college level, USCSA racing is MUCH more fun than NCAA racing. It's not even close. USCSA is generally a celebration of ski racing, skiing, and camaraderie. It's awesome.

 

[Muleski]

@S.H and I shared this story via PM a while ago.

I have a close friend who skied at the NCAA level, was a multi year AA, and was very close to the USST before and after college. He may be the most competitive guy that I have ever met, at everything. Tops in his class at a great graduate school. Huge business success. You get the picture.

His son grew up skiing and racing weekends in VT. He loved it, but was never any world beater. He went to a public high school in NY that had a high school ski team. Not a good one. He skied for five years {started as an eighth grader}, was the captain two years, and he absolutely loved it. He didn't win any races, or any state championships, but in that world, he was a star. It was a big deal, a great experience, and it was fun.

During those HS years, he kept skiing weekends, training and doing some USSA racing. The mountain where they ski has a ski academy, and around the 8th grade, his group of ski friends separated. Some went the full time ski academy route, some like him skied in a weekend program {really small numbers} and some quit racing. He kept solid friendships, and was one of the few weekend kids who was "accepted" by the ski academy kids. He's a good guy.

Ay one point my friend, who in today's world would be something like a 15 point FIS skier, laughed wth me and told me that his son was pretty excited to be a 250 point USSA skier. He chuckled and said "I don't get it.....but he absolutely loves it, and that is all that matters."

He went on to a GREAT college, which happened to have a well funded USCSA club team. Not a good one. Not vying for any national championships. But again, he had a blast. He was the club president/captain for a couple of years. They would travel for races and every one was a great time. There were some kids who had been pretty good racers through HS. There were others who had skied quite a bit, and never raced. Everything. Very social, and fun. It was a huge part of his college experience. Now in his 30's, he and his wife still ski every weekend, head out west, etc.

My kids skied in the NCAA, for good teams, but not vying for the National Championship kind of teams. That's not always as much fun. They were smart enough, or things worked out ,so that they were not always clawing to be one of the six to ski in carnival races. They were very solid contributors. However, their ski academy friends who went the USCSA route had an awful lot of fun, were All Americans, national champions, etc.

I know that I sound like a broken drum. SO many ways to enjoy and love this ski racing thing.