Teaching with CARV

[Philpug]

I still contend that CARV has insufficient sensors to accurately understand what's happening with the skiing performance.

Yet you put all the weight in the flex of a ski and how that acuately defines the ski performance

Let me put it into golf context for you, Carv is like a swing simulator you take on the course.

 

[Philpug]

I was sent a set of Carv's and have been playing with it for a couple of days, but not enough to give full review on but I will share a few things. It is indeed interesting but it is limiting and I think it can be fooled and looking at the scores on the app, I see it is easy to go down the rabbit hole if you want to go just by score, we see it in Strava and I see it here.

I do think the information that is relayed from the app is one dimensional and (obviously) carving based. The audible aspect is interesting and I found it to be helpful. One of the things that I noticed when we ran the Epicski Academies the focus if every group was usually working on the same thing, basics. That is what I see Carv doing it focuses on the same turn in a controlled environment, onve you get thousands of these turns and create the best stance, its a foundation for the rest of your turns.

Is Carv better than an actual lesson? Yes .. and no. In another part of the site, we will constantly say "Go to a bootfitter". Well that is true IF you have access to a good bootfitter. Some people do not, we help them to avoid the pitfalls of going to a beginner or inexperienced fitter. With Carv, IMHO from what I have seen so far, it is better ROI than a new or inexperienced instructor. Is it better than a high level instructor? No. not everyone can get a strong level II or III, which IMHO will be better.

I almost want to get a Carv setup and see how I could do with it. I could see a future where I could get referrals from it.

I think you should. I think Carv is creating enough following that they could set up a program with Carv certified instructors that they can refer Carv-ites to.

I do think there is a lot of benefit of Carv, I am trying to figure out how to incorporate into ski reviews and it it is viable data that is meaningful ... the same way static flex numbers are valuable.

 

[Yepow]

Is Carv better than an actual lesson? Yes .. and no. In another part of the site, we will constantly say "Go to a bootfitter". Well that is true IF you have access to a good bootfitter. Some people do not, we help them to avoid the pitfalls of going to a beginner or inexperienced fitter. With Carv, IMHO from what I have seen so far, it is better ROI than a new or inexperienced instructor. Is it better than a high level instructor? No. not everyone can get a strong level II or III, which IMHO will be better.

I do think there is a lot of benefit of Carv, I am trying to figure out how to incorporate into ski reviews and it it is viable data that is meaningful ... the same way static flex numbers are valuable.

I think this is pretty right. I've logged a lot of days on CARV now on a small SK mountain with no Level 3 instructors available, no meaningful vert or steepness, and progressed to 150+ SkiIQ. I think this simultaneously points out both things--

1) you CAN improve meaningfully with it (and other resources) over the course of even a couple of months with dedicated practice. I did so.
2) it is NOT enough to become an excellent or even competent skier on its own I'm still a strong intermediate skier who carves a lot better than I did before All the other dimensions of my skiing are unaffected or perhaps have some ancillary benefit from turn shape and weighting, but not massive leaps. It's one piece in my self-improvement journey.

 

[Wannabeskibum]

I was sent a set of Carv's and ahce been playing with it for a couple of days, but not enough to give full review on but I will share a few things. It is indeed interesting but it is limiting and I think it can be fooled and looking at the scores on the app, I see it is easy to go down the rabbit hole if you want to go just by score, we see it in Strava and I see it here.

I do think the information that is relayed from the app is one dimensional and (obviously) carving based. The audible aspect is interesting and I found it to be helpful. One of the things that I noticed when we ran the Epicski Academies the focus if every group was usually working on the same thing, basics. That is what I see Carv doing it focuses on the same turn in a controlled environment, onve you get thousands of these turns and create the best stance, its a foundation for the rest of your turns.

Is Carv better than an actual lesson? Yes .. and no. In another part of the site, we will constantly say "Go to a bootfitter". Well that is true IF you have access to a good bootfitter. Some people do not, we help them to avoid the pitfalls of going to a beginner or inexperienced fitter. With Carv, IMHO from what I have seen so far, it is better ROI than a new or inexperienced instructor. Is it better than a high level instructor? No. not everyone can get a strong level II or III, which IMHO will be better.

I think you should. I think Carv is creating enough following that they could set up a program with Carv certified instructors that they can refer Carv-ites to.

I do think there is a lot of benefit of Carv, I am trying to figure out how to incorporate into ski reviews and it it is viable data that is meaningful ... the same way static flex numbers are valuable.

@Philpug - Fundamentally, I can see how Carv could be useful for the skier learning how to Carv and perhaps as a reinforcement between ski lessons - bearing in mind that I only use it free ski mode and then look at the data at lunch or the end of the day - not sure I could handle the voice in my ear particularly if the voice was telling me a concept in a different terminology that an experienced instructor would use. I got the Carv sensors a few years ago and am “grandfathered” meaning no subscription fee in exchange for all the data that I have given them. As a rule my only carving runs are the first few warm ups in the morning and then I am off to the bumps or trees or the high alpine where few turns are geared towards the carv algorithms. Interestingly enough that when I set the leaderboard location to Banff Sunshine today, I was the only skier on the mountain using Carv. Usually at Killington or Breckenridge there are 30 or move Carv users on any given day. Having said all that - I am a much better skier than my SkiIQ would indicate.

 

[Yepow]

@Philpug - Fundamentally, I can see how Carv could be useful for the skier learning how to Carv and perhaps as a reinforcement between ski lessons - bearing in mind that I only use it free ski mode and then look at the data at lunch or the end of the day - not sure I could handle the voice in my ear particularly if the voice was telling me a concept in a different terminology that an experienced instructor would use. I got the Carv sensors a few years ago and am “grandfathered” meaning no subscription fee in exchange for all the data that I have given them. As a rule my only carving runs are the first few warm ups in the morning and then I am off to the bumps or trees or the high alpine where few turns are geared towards the carv algorithms. Interestingly enough that when I set the leaderboard location to Banff Sunshine today, I was the only skier on the mountain using Carv. Usually at Killington or Breckenridge there are 30 or move Carv users on any given day. Having said all that - I am a much better skier than my SkiIQ would indicate.

Gotta bomb Banff Ave down to Goat's Eye once on edge to set that 140 for the day ;-)

 

[Wannabeskibum]

Gotta bomb Banff Ave down to Goat's Eye once on edge to set that 140 for the day ;-)

I will keep that in mind for tomorrow

 

[cantunamunch]

Is Carv better than an actual lesson? Yes .. and no. In another part of the site, we will constantly say "Go to a bootfitter". Well that is true IF you have access to a good bootfitter. Some people do not, we help them to avoid the pitfalls of going to a beginner or inexperienced fitter. With Carv, IMHO from what I have seen so far, it is better ROI than a new or inexperienced instructor. Is it better than a high level instructor? No. not everyone can get a strong level II or III, which IMHO will be better.

I will ask you specifically what I asked at the top of the thread - can CARV provide useful data to the bootfitter.?

 

[Philpug]

I will ask you specifically what I asked at the top of the thread - can CARV provide useful data to the bootfitter.?

Maybe for lateral alignment, it shows edge angles.

 

[KJL]

Maybe for lateral alignment, it shows edge angles.

Maybe more.

This video is an example of where Carv led someone (Jens himself) to alter their boots, to what appears to be an immediate marked improvement in his carving.

(The Carv “before/after” results start at 5:13 but the “after” run right before already seems better, visually).

Jens is very quick to point out this was an unusual situation, but it hints the potential is there.

 

[KJL]

Carv then sent me a similar chart of my own balance performance on the same disappointing run I was asking about — and it was wonderfully illuminating:

View attachment 163539
...

(I'm unsure why there's that sudden dip in forward balance in the middle of the turn. Perhaps someone here can hypothesize about that).

The jaggy pressure spikes are a consequence of your trying to do with muscle action what BB's ideal skier does with body position. You pressure, you rebound off the cuff, you re-engage. Perfectly normal, but as you already noticed, it isn't what's being attempted to be coached.

On the mystery of the "dromedary camel double-hump" curve, I got some clarity from Carv today.

For this particular run, the upper half of the slope was scoring in the high-130s/low-140s, but I let myself go (Ski:IQ ~100) on the bottom half due to conditions and circumstances.

Because the chart is actually an average of the curves across all the turns on that run, the resulting curve has a "bimodal" distribution with two humps: I was a bit late with my forward pressure higher up on the slope, but really really late down below.

It's important to only record Carv sessions in the section of the slope you intend to ski seriously on. Carv cannot guess when you are "paying attention to your skiing", even though it does an otherwise great job parsing a day's continuous recording into multiple runs/lifts.

This probably has importance for instructors whose students want to evaluate their progress after specific drills.

On the iPhone you can create Shortcuts that you can trigger with Siri, including using the Apple Watch. I'll start doing that next season for sure, just to help Carv get a more precise view of my intentions.

 

[KJL]

I found this out when I reached out to Carv's customer support because I was confused why my "Start of Turn" metric was so terrible (25-50, rather than >60) despite my Fore:Aft monitor numbers being very good (keeping it between 55-60).

Carv first sent me this chart of the "ideal" forward/back pressure when plotted against the turn:

View attachment 163538

You see how the "Intermediate" skier only moves forward well after the middle of the turn? (Likely because they're ramming into their skid and thus being forced forward).

Carv then sent me a similar chart of my own balance performance on the same disappointing run I was asking about — and it was wonderfully illuminating:

View attachment 163539

Using the Fore:Aft ratio monitor, I "learned" to maximize my numbers in the middle of the turn, in my case by projecting my rib case down the fall line (scary!). You can clearly see from my chart that I was "succeeding" at doing just that: max forward pressures in the middle third of the turn.

THIS WAS WRONG. I can achieve forward balance just fine, but I do it in the wrong part of the turn.

(I'm unsure why there's that sudden dip in forward balance in the middle of the turn. Perhaps someone here can hypothesize about that).

So while Carv correctly identifies the problem, it does not yet provide either the necessary charts or the monitor to help me improve being forward at the start of the turn. Even the suggested (and otherwise superb) video from Tom Gellie really only addresses the end-of-turn backseat positioning.

That was disappointing, particularly as I spent much of my only two days on the slopes (without my kids!) trying to improve just this one aspect of my skiing, only to find out Carv never provided me the tools for success.

For contrast, I just got Carv to plot the same curve but for a run with mildly better fore:aft balance during Start of Turn (58% vs 54%, but this moved that metric into the desired "green" zone):

This run was actually on a green slope (not ideal for Carv) but the big difference is that the slope was wide, consistent, and had no people or any other obstructions on it.

Notice that I don't have a "double-hump" pressure curve here. Also, gratifyingly (because I was specifically working hard at it here) I really do achieve proper forward balance in the first third of the run. It just doesn't transfer to a blue run, yet ....

(For those interested, I have some similarity in pressure curves between my inside and outside skis during left turns, but my right turns show wide disparity. Much more to work on!).

 

[Wannabeskibum]

For contrast, I just got Carv to plot the same curve but for a run with mildly better fore:aft balance during Start of Turn (58% vs 54%, but this moved that metric into the desired "green" zone):

View attachment 163878

This run was actually on a green slope (not ideal for Carv) but the big difference is that the slope was wide, consistent, and had no people or any other obstructions on it.

Notice that I don't have a "double-hump" pressure curve here. Also, gratifyingly (because I was specifically working hard at it here) I really do achieve proper forward balance in the first third of the run. It just doesn't transfer to a blue run, yet ....

(For those interested, I have some similarity in pressure curves between my inside and outside skis during left turns, but my right turns show wide disparity. Much more to work on!).

This is all very interesting. I turn Carv on at the beginning of the day and turn it off at the end of the day - I guess I need to go back and have them send me the data from some of my “good” runs

 

[KJL]

This is all very interesting. I turn Carv on at the beginning of the day and turn it off at the end of the day - I guess I need to go back and have them send me the data from some of my “good” runs

Let us know if you find anything interesting!

You can manually start and stop a run all you like (you can let Carv record the "Lift" to visually separate groups of runs), but FYI if you "go tactical" Carv currently requires a minimum of ten turns before returning a Ski:IQ, tips, and a chance to be on the leaderboard.

 

[anders_nor]

you can view iq per turn (very high) but when you stop at lift, stop waiting for someone, or ski into lift area, your overall score goes down massivly, kinda weird.

 

[cantunamunch]

you can view iq per turn (very high) but when you stop at lift, stop waiting for someone, or ski into lift area, your overall score goes down massivly, kinda weird.

So....has anyone used it on carpet?

 

[Wannabeskibum]

Let us know if you find anything interesting!

You can manually start and stop a run all you like (you can let Carv record the "Lift" to visually separate groups of runs), but FYI if you "go tactical" Carv currently requires a minimum of ten turns before returning a Ski:IQ, tips, and a chance to be on the leaderboard.

Do I send them the question through the app - as in "please show me the raw data from this run on this day"?

I am curious, but I am not going to get hung up on my SkiIQ - groomed terrain - since I am rarely skiing on it -- this is what I was skiing this past weekend in the Canadian Rockies (Sunshine Village. Ski-IQ for the run that included the glades (Gladerunner) was 107 and for the other run through the rock outcroppings (Cleavage) was 106 both of which include run-outs back to the lift. Only groomed run of the day gave me a 119 again with the top portion of the run being a green and the bottom portion of the run having a run out.

 

[Yepow]

Cleavage looking in good shape! A few days till I get there

 

[KJL]

Do I send them the question through the app - as in "please show me the raw data from this run on this day"?

Carv told me they won't send the "raw data", unfortunately. That's really what I'd love to work with, even if it had been smoothed with outliers thrown out.

Rather, I asked them specifically about fore:aft ratios for a specific run, and they returned with the above graphs of the balance throughout a turn averaged over all the runs.

But even that took 2-3 days, probably customer support talking with engineering first. I wouldn't say this was a sustainable way to gain the deeper understanding of Carv numbers some of us desire — and certainly not in time to do something about it between runs!

 

[Wannabeskibum]

Does Carv act like Strava and compare all users? Did not know that.

Could you screenshot the pages that are available on the app? I think my skier basically had a score of zero for rotary. I wasn't sure if that's good or bad. If he is doing RR tracks, should read zero? IDK. I have a regular client who is a much better skier that has Carv on order. It'll be interesting to see what that looks like.

 

[Wannabeskibum]

Yes, in the resorts tab, you can see your ranking in the resort and for a run. At the end of this season, they produced a “story” of your season — total number of turns, most improved metric, highest turn score (mine was a 151 on Skyeburst at Killington), how you compared to other CARV users world wide and at the resort you skied most frequently. Some interesting insights!

Also, in March they introduced a new feature which enables the user to ”tag” segments of a run with snow conditions and type of terrain. The purpose being that they are trying to collect the data so that the algorithms can be tailored to the terrain and snow conditions, i.e. bumps, powder, trees, etc.

I will post some screen shots of my metrics — I don’t generate high edge angles but I am a level 9 skier in virtually all terrain and snow conditions. Typically my “rotary” metric is very high as in my parallel ski index, edge similarity, and balance.