Teaching with CARV

[Erik Timmerman]

Have any of you guys taught a lesson to someone using Carv? Or are you a Carv user that has taken a lesson while using it?

I had a lesson yesterday with a guy that had it. It was... interesting. The first thing I learned is that it definitely will not teach you how to ski. The guy had all "goods" on his screen, and there was definitely nothing "good" about his skiing at that time. His scores actually dropped as we went through the lesson and then at the end they got higher than they were at the start. I did not control his app, so I'm not sure what data is available. I'm also not sure what it scores, quantity or quality. It seems like maybe it could be useful if used right, but I don't think it helped us at all and certainly hadn't been helping up until that point. I also wonder if there could or should be a coaches' app for it.

 

[KevinF]

I'm curious... if your student had all "good"'s on his screen what was his rationale for taking a lesson? Did he have enough self awareness to realize that despite the "good"'s that something didn't feel right?

 

[Seldomski]

His scores actually dropped as we went through the lesson and then at the end they got higher than they were at the start.

Interesting. Anecdotally, if I have a good lesson (ie my skiing actually changes/improves/transforms), things feel weird and I fall several times for a bit, then my skiing gets better.

 

[wiread]

I have no experience with the App, but learning anything. Adults, dogs, kids, learning isn't linear. Do something really well, but spend some time on one aspect to improve the overall skill often leads to a decrease in performance while your brain is linking everything back together. Then you take off again. Like learning guitar, working some chord changes you just learned or knew fairly well in some songs, but try and do them faster and at some point, it all seems to go to crap for a bit. Then one day, it's like you've been doing it forever and it's so easy and effortless.

I change something in a golf swing and it's worse than when I first started it seems. Teach me to focus on something different in my ski turn than I'm used to, I might fall for a bit

Again, zero experience with CARV, just pointing out a generality in learning.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I'm curious... if your student had all "good"'s on his screen what was his rationale for taking a lesson? Did he have enough self awareness to realize that despite the "good"'s that something didn't feel right?

Couldn’t ski a black trail in control was the impetus.

 

[Fuller]

I think CARV has a tough time knowing where your COM is.

 

[Wannabeskibum]

I have a fair amount of experience with Carv over the past few years and I record data on every ski day and even when i am skiing with an instructor. The problem with Carv is the following - the algorithms are highly optimized for skiing on a perfectly groomed run of moderate pitch. This was confirmed by the Carv product manager on a recent webinar that I attended that showed the raw data (not available on the app) for a top level instructor and a skier that would be considered an "expert". You cannot get a high score if you are skiing trees, bumps, variable snow conditions as the algorithms aren't really interpreting the sensor data coming from that type of skiing. I am not a hip to the ground, high edge angle carver. I am a level 9 skier in any ski school program mainly because I ski very proficiently in all snow conditions and terrain. My Ski IQ is 129 - which is pretty high. PSIA level 3s will score 150 or above. On any given day at Killington amongst Carv users, I am usually have a top 10-15 score - but that is really dependent on the snow conditions on the one or two trails at Killington that have the right pitch and snow conditions. The Carv data tells me that I have good outside ski pressure but can improve in that area and and in early edging on the inside ski edge. I am a lifetime skier old enough for Medicare and while I don't aspire to be a hip to the ground carver, I am always trying to improve that aspect of my skiing as "I know it is good for me".

The main metrics are Balance, Edging, Pressure and Rotary. Within balance is measuring start of turn, end of turn, and topple. Within edging it is measuring edge similarity, edge angle, early edging, edge smoothness, and turn comparison (are you right turns identical to your left). With pressure it is measuring outside ski pressure, pressure smoothness, and turn comparison (i.e. left and right turns). The rotary metric has two components - parallel skis and turn shape (i.e. z vs s).

Hope this gives you some context

 

[Erik Timmerman]

On any given day at Killington amongst Carv users, I am usually have a top 10-15 score - but that is really dependent on the snow conditions

Does Carv act like Strava and compare all users? Did not know that.

Could you screenshot the pages that are available on the app? I think my skier basically had a score of zero for rotary. I wasn't sure if that's good or bad. If he is doing RR tracks, should read zero? IDK. I have a regular client who is a much better skier that has Carv on order. It'll be interesting to see what that looks like.

 

[jimtransition]

I haven't used Carv, as the way I have my boots set up (wedge in heel) apparently means it doesn't work. I have a few friends who have been given them to use and they seem to like it, but there's a lot of gaming the system to get higher scores. You can achieve better IQ on easier runs, making sure you pause it when your 'good' turns are over, never having it on when skiing ungroomed etc. Did your lesson want to ski better? Or get higher scores? Not saying those things are mutually exclusive, but probably easier to learn to game the algorithm.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I haven't used Carv, as the way I have my boots set up (wedge in heel) apparently means it doesn't work. I have a few friends who have been given them to use and they seem to like it, but there's a lot of gaming the system to get higher scores. You can achieve better IQ on easier runs, making sure you pause it when your 'good' turns are over, never having it on when skiing ungroomed etc. Did your lesson want to ski better? Or get higher scores? Not saying those things are mutually exclusive, but probably easier to learn to game the algorithm.

Ski better. I'm not sure he really cared about the Carv. I'm just wondering if it can help us help them.

 

[cantunamunch]

but there's a lot of gaming the system to get higher scores.

*is totally imagining someone throwing their boots to the bottom, just like they used to throw the Garmins to the top of the Strava segment*

Interesting point about boot wedges tho.

 

[jimtransition]

Ski better. I'm not sure he really cared about the Carv. I'm just wondering if it can help us help them.

I think to be useful you'd need to know your way around the app and get a sense for what it's measuring. I think there must be some good info in there.

 

[jimtransition]

*is totally imagining someone throwing their boots to the bottom, just like they used to throw the Garmins to the top of the Strava segment*

Interesting point about boot wedges tho.

Haha I didn't realise people do that with garmins.

Yeah also not sure if my boots would have enough space, a friend has a pair of more relaxed fit boots for getting carv IQs and then proper boots for actual skiing.

 

[raytseng]

I think the latest push they have put up a lot of homelessons content to YouTube, as well as the original idea is they have live audiolink give you either challege or tips to think about each run if you got the headset audio.

So there is an active learning component layer as well just the passively record the ski metrics and "scores".

If you're doing human instruction lesson certainly you ignore the DIY instruction layer for the lesson. And just using it as a measurement tool only, same as if you were doing video and drawing lines on it.

If the lesson goal is you are focusing on improving those core piste carv skills then I do think it will show up in the carv measurement.

Of course, keep in mind jf you're teaching a big change of something like alignment or body positioning, it maybe 1step backwards before 2 steps forward, so the metrics might go down before they get better. Which is probably what you saw.
As well as assume their devices are working correctly and not having any technical issues.

A couple carv sponsored YouTube videos I think did a good job how to blend live instruction and the tool.
I think this like the stomp it one is a example of how the lesson remains human led and the carv just to check for change / results of certain metrics.

 

[cantunamunch]

So...has anyone shown their bootfitter their CARV data?

 

[UGASkiDawg]

Does Carv act like Strava and compare all users? Did not know that.

Could you screenshot the pages that are available on the app? I think my skier basically had a score of zero for rotary. I wasn't sure if that's good or bad. If he is doing RR tracks, should read zero? IDK. I have a regular client who is a much better skier that has Carv on order. It'll be interesting to see what that looks like.

Hi Erik,

Here are the screen shots you request for one of my better runs on my 2nd day back on skis after ACL repair last June. This was on Slalom skis and on super easy green run. Steeper terrain and fatter skis and my scores go down substantially. Using Carv is at time's frustrating and at other times enlightening. My biggest struggle is balance. I have learned that what I thought was "getting forward" was really just me crushing the tongue without being aware of how I was pressuring the soles of my feet. Before Carv I would have said I was a pretty good skier with lots of self taught ingrained bad habits. Now I have some direction to help me understand what I need to work on. @Mike King is an instructor and I believe a Carv user so he may help with this thread.

 

[Wannabeskibum]

Does Carv act like Strava and compare all users? Did not know that.

Could you screenshot the pages that are available on the app? I think my skier basically had a score of zero for rotary. I wasn't sure if that's good or bad. If he is doing RR tracks, should read zero? IDK. I have a regular client who is a much better skier that has Carv on order. It'll be interesting to see what that looks like.

There is a leaderboard screen in Carv that is filterable by mountain and then will show the season, month, week, or day.

 

[EricG]

In reading the Carv site i wonder how well it really works in the mixed conditions the east has much of the year. I wonder if it’s really geared toward the Deer Valley & Sun Valley beautifully groomed runs that are consistent for ‘carving’. Not mention it appears expensive due to the subscription.

sidenote: do we really need a leaderboard for this when trails are already crowded..

 

[GB_Ski]

I would love to see Erik and a few others (instructors and racers) put in Carv and go make some turns and post their scores.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It would be fun to try. I was excited about the Atomic system but they seem to have dropped it.