Responsibility: Driving vs Skiing

[BLiP]

It is made amply it clear to skiers and riders what their responsibilities are.

Is it? Someone who has never skied before comes out to the mountain - where/how are they informed of their responsibilities?

 

[Hankj]

Is it? Someone who has never skied before comes out to the mountain - where/how are they informed of their responsibilities?

Yeah maybe it's not. I seem to see the responsibility code all over the places, lift poles, urinals, back of ticket, inside gondolas, posters in tickets office, etc etc. But maybe one needs to read and pay some attention to absorb it ...

 

[BLiP]

Yeah maybe it's not. I seem to see the responsibility code all over the places, lift poles, urinals, back of ticket, inside gondolas, posters in tickets office. But maybe one needs to read and pay some attention to absorb it ...

Depends on the individual resort, I suppose. I've seen the code posted on lift poles at one resort (cannot remember which one - maybe Killington or Stowe), but at the two I frequent most often, I haven't seen anything.

So you have people coming out whose only information/knowledge of skiing is what they've seen on YouTube/Instagram/TikTok.

 

[MissySki]

So you have people coming out whose only information/knowledge of skiing is what they've seen on YouTube/Instagram/TikTok.

Yep and probably friends encouraging them to do stupid things.. go too fast, don’t turn because if you do that you can’t keep up, go on more advanced terrain than they should be on, not understand who has the right of way. Think of like high school ski clubs.. one would hope they at least educate their skiers on etiquette and skier code, but who knows. The one in my town goes to Wachusett, they get “optional” lessons, and from what I’ve usually seen in night skiing there the kids run a muck with not a lot or even any supervision in many cases. One parent chaperone posted a video of some of the kids straightlining racing eachother in a local Facebook group.. my comment was that they shouldn’t be promoting straightlining as skiing, and I hope the kids are being taught how to actually ski in a skilled and responsible way. Didn’t go over well, and they got very defensive.

 

[johnnyvw]

SKiing by and large is less of a "sport" and more "recreation"...like going to an amusement park

 

[MissySki]

SKiing by and large is less of a "sport" and more "recreation"...like going to an amusement park

Usually your behavior or lack of skill at an amusement park doesn’t have the potential to maim or kill someone around you.. how exactly is it like that? Outside of the long lines and expensive food. You are a much more active participant on the mountain, than a passive participant at an amusement park. There isn’t something you’re clipping into at the top to ski you down to the base. You do actually have to do something.

 

[scott43]

I'm no lawyer but there are a few things that make me wonder. Why do we not hold dog owners criminally responsible when their dog injures someone? I love dogs but I've told people if their dog bites my kid they're going home with a dead dog and that's on them. Why is falling asleep in the car not as bad as drunk driving? If you're tired stop driving. It's a choice.

As far as skiers, I think if it's reasonable skiing behavior and something happens, I'm not sure there should be criminal repercussions. However, if the behaviour reaches a reckless threshold then there should certainly be criminal investigation. If there's a sign that says no straight-lining and you're straight-lining, reckless endangerment, assault or manslaughter.

At the end of the day, accidents can happen and I think you have to look at what's reasonable to determine punishment.

 

[1Turn2Many]

Skiing is not the same as driving and I for one am happy it’s not. I don’t want to be told that I’m too young or too old to ski. I don’t want to get a ski license. I don’t want stop signs, traffic lights, speed limits, and dashed lines on the mountain. And I especially don’t want my “emissions” checked.

 

[johnnyvw]

Usually your behavior or lack of skill at an amusement park doesn’t have the potential to maim or kill someone around you.. how exactly is it like that? Outside of the long lines and expensive food. You are a much more active participant on the mountain, than a passive participant at an amusement park. There isn’t something you’re clipping into at the top to ski you down to the base. You do actually have to do something.

My point is that's the way many people veiw skiing, for it's 'entertainment" value. And it's that mentality that's the problem.

 

[François Pugh]

My point is that's the way many people veiw skiing, for it's 'entertainment" value. And it's that mentality that's the problem.

That's how I view skiing, and how I view driving, and motorcylcing. It's fun and entertaining, especially at higher speeds.

However I AM RESPONSIBLE for my actions. When I see that it would endanger other people I limit my fun. The trouble is people haven't been brought up to take responsibility for their actions, IMHO. The other problem is there is no absolutely safe. How safe is not safe enough? A 99% chance of nobody being injured? A 99.99999%? What? We all can't agree on what a reasonable risk is.

 

[fatbob]

The main difference between driving and skiing is that dangerous driving gets regulated while no one holds skiers to account. Maybe back in the 70s 80s things were less regulated and more socially acceptable re DUIs etc. Probably dangerous skiing needs to become socially unacceptable rather than " sorry, sorry, it was an accident".

 

[no edge]

Maybe people should be required to carry insurance. And the insurance laws could be no fault. Insurance wouldn't keep people out of jail, but it could cover expenses. Someone could put in a claim to cover bills related to the accident or crash.

I would not like to see insurance become part of skiing, but it could hurry the process of paying the injured.

 

[James]

Europe is not all anything goes-

Italy- as of 1/2022, you need 3rd party liability insurance. Plus under 18 they need a helmet.
There’s also “zero tolerance” for being under the influence of drugs and alcohol coming down the slopes.
Also-
Avalanche transceiver, shovel and probe must be carried on ski and piste tours, snowshoe hikes or winter hikes in areas where there is a risk of avalanches

—————
The same limits have been set for alcohol consumption as for road traffic: a blood alcohol content of between 0.5 and 0.8 g/l will result in a fine of between 250 and 1,000 euros, while a blood alcohol content of more than 0.8 g/l will be punished even more severely and constitute a criminal offence.

Compulsory liability insurance:
On all slopes, it is compulsory to take out a liability insurance policy for damage or offences against third parties, which was introduced to protect all users in the event of accidents and resulting liability. Without it, you risk a fine of 100 to 150 euros and the immediate withdrawal of your ski pass. The insurance can be for a single day, a weekend, a week, a month or a year and can be taken out together with the ski pass or at an insurance agency.
—————

Slope rules in Trentino - Trentino - Italy

New regulations for safety on ski and sledge runs: The new regulations have been in force since 1 January 2022.

www.trentino.com

.8g/l would be .08% BAC I believe.

 

[Wade]

Why do we not hold dog owners criminally responsible when their dog injures someone? I love dogs but I've told people if their dog bites my kid they're going home with a dead dog and that's on them..

You’ve really felt the need to tell multiple dog owners that you’ll kill their dog if it bites your kid? Holy shit!

Like, you’d shoot the dog to stop it biting your kid (which seems like it would endanger your kid more than the dog bite)? Or you’d shoot or otherwise kill the dog as revenge after you had separated it from your kid?

 

[scott43]

In Ontario you are allowed by law to shoot any dog that is harassing your livestock. Doesn't even say biting. Why? Cows cost money and dogs don't. What's a child worth? I just find the cult of idiot dog owners offensive. "He never does that!" And he won't ever again.

 

[crgildart]

In Ontario you are allowed by law to shoot any dog that is harassing your livestock. Doesn't even say biting. Why? Cows cost money and dogs don't. What's a child worth? I just find the cult of idiot dog owners offensive. "He never does that!" And he won't ever again.

A couple months ago someone shot a dog that had slipped their collar and was fighting another dog at the park. The other dog was on the leash and that dog owner pulled out their gun and shot and killed the loose dog while that owner was running there to grab their dog.

Just because you can doesn't mean you always should. Unless it's a clear need to safe the life (i.e. dog has the throat of the other dog) I don't believe deadly force is appropriate when the other dog owner is likely going to regain control of their dog.

 

[Tricia]

As with car violence: it is always a crash, not an accident, when the incident could have been avoided.

Words matter.

The incident with Mr. Martinez was a crash, there was full culpability. Sadly, much as with car violence we have become numbed to the seriousness of things by putting so many plausible deniability loopholes into law that most perpetrators get off with wrist slaps. it's insulting to the victims and allows people to get away with what is, for all intents and purposes, murder.

Should skiing safety laws be more solid, standard, and airtight? Absolutely. Are they completely analogous to driving? No, but the amount of wiggle room that basically plays the perp as a victim is fairly vast in many states and municipalities. Killing a person is a heavy duty, serious crime and the penalties should show that. The "intent" loophole used in LeMaster's murder (and it was murder, full stop) allowed for a person who will undoubtedly do the same move again to go free and set a truly horrific precedent moving forward.

Litigation is only good if it actually sets a precedent where safety and justice actually prevail. And in this case neither did.

</rant>

We were skiing someplace recently where they had signage about responsibility in an incident.
I recall the signage saying, "if you're involved in an incident, please stay on scene and exchange information. Wait for patrol to show up to write up an incident report."

I wish I could remember the ski area where I saw this but I felt it was smart.

 

[OSD]

I shouldn’t have said it as such a generalization. And the run away part is super disturbing that I’m sure many hopefully would not do. Though I imagine there is a major adrenaline fight or flight response happening after that sort of accident. Hard to really say what anyone would do in a situation that causes that sort of systemic reaction..

I agree with the reckless demographic but fleeing is next level. I mean imagine a friend telling you 'yeah I ran into this guy and knocked him unconscious and before he got up I got the hell out of there'. Could you even stay friends with someone like that? Dude probably runs with a crew that told him he did the right thing.

 

[crgildart]

I agree with the reckless demographic but fleeing is next level. I mean imagine a friend telling you 'yeah I ran into this guy and knocked him unconscious and before he got up I got the hell out of there'. Could you even stay friends with someone like that? Dude probably runs with a crew that told him he did the right thing.

I remember when there was an urban legend circulating that snowboarders were playing the knockout game with random skiers out there.

Zero confirmation that anything like that ever happened on ski slopes. I do see people clowning around and trying to knock their friends down though.

Knockout game - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[S.H.]

We were skiing someplace recently where they had signage about responsibility in an incident.
I recall the signage saying, "if you're involved in an incident, please stay on scene and exchange information. Wait for patrol to show up to write up an incident report."

I wish I could remember the ski area where I saw this but I felt it was smart.

This is essentially item 10 of the responsibility code ... it's posted everywhere I've skied in the last couple of years (since it was added to the code in the 2022 update)

Your Responsibility Code

www.nsaa.org