Responsibility: Driving vs Skiing

[SkiSchoolPros]

Should negligent skiers and riders be held as responsible as negligent drivers?

Consider these two tragic accidents. The driver who unintentionally killed a bicyclist and remained at the scene got 9 months jail time with work release https://www.summitdaily.com/news/dr...on-colorado-highway-9-sentenced-to-jail-time/

while the Snowboarder who ran into Ron LeMaster and left the scene was not charged with manslaughter because the DA's office didn't "believe there is enough evidence to establish the requisite mens rea (a defendant's intention to commit a crime)”

Snowboarder charged with petty offense in collision death of famed Colorado ski instructor

The family of Ronald LeMaster, a renowned Boulder ski instructor, is upset that prosecutors aren't pursuing manslaughter charges in LeMaster's skiing death.

denvergazette.com

To be clear, I do see differences in these two cases, but I also think the legal system is using a different standard in general to measure things.

 

[rickg]

This was a tragic accident. However, the actions of Mr. Martinez as described in the article deserves more than a slap on the wrist. If it was truly an accident that could not have been avoided, then Mr. Martinez should have remained on the scene and cooperated as any motorist is required to do by law. Leaving the scene when the person you hit is unconscious and bleeding from eyes nose and mouth, is deplorable!

What is happening to our sport?

Rick G

 

[Edd]

Terrible story, disturbs me greatly as an avid skier. Based on the injuries, I was waiting to read about a tree being involved somehow but they seem to have resulted only from the person-to-person collision, which blows my mind a bit.

I appreciate the fight-or-flight response the snowboarder had but I can’t fathom fleeing the scene of a ski collision, particularly when the other party is obviously severely injured. For that alone, the punishment should be greater.

 

[MissySki]

My goodness, the amount of bodily harm reported from a collision with another human being is unimaginable. Imagine the speed this had to have occurred at for someone to cause that much damage to another grown man’s body. How can they say the person who hit him couldn’t be shown to be skiing out of control, when they were unable to avoid another skier and impart that much damage??

And the perpetrator was a male in his 20s, and completely unwilling to take responsibility for his actions.. how completely, and sadly, not shocking.

 

[crgildart]

Why should it make any difference where the reckless behavior happened in regard to what the appropriate legal response should be? Road, bike trail, skateboard park, ski resort? It shouldn't matter. Hit and run is hit and run. That said, a car can be considered a weapon when it's clearly intentional.

 

[johnnyvw]

Should negligent skiers and riders be held as responsible as negligent drivers?

Yes

 

[OSD]

And the perpetrator was a male in his 20s, and completely unwilling to take responsibility for his actions.. how completely, and sadly, not shocking.

Even in my amoral 20s I wouldn't have fled this scene, this dude is a straight up sociopath. The one time I was in a similar situation I had to choose between hitting a skier and a lift pole and I chose the lift pole. This dude chose the skier.

 

[James]

Colorado appears to have manslaughter and 2nd degree manslaughter. Instead of involuntary and voluntary.

Not sure how much one can parse the below statement without legal knowledge and/or CO legal knowledge. We would say it was reckless, but was it legally provable recklessness?
——————
For you to be convicted of manslaughter in Colorado, the prosecution must prove that you acted recklessly. This is a higher standard than negligence because your actions involve a substantial and unjustifiable risk of death or great bodily injury.
——————

https://www.carelawboulder.com/blog/2022/04/what-colorado-laws-say-about-manslaughter/

 

[MissySki]

Even in my amoral 20s I wouldn't have fled this scene, this dude is a straight up sociopath. The one time I was in a similar situation I had to choose between hitting a skier and a lift pole and I chose the lift pole. This dude chose the skier.

I shouldn’t have said it as such a generalization. And the run away part is super disturbing that I’m sure many hopefully would not do. Though I imagine there is a major adrenaline fight or flight response happening after that sort of accident. Hard to really say what anyone would do in a situation that causes that sort of systemic reaction..

It just came up in another thread recently that the folks we see behaving the most dangerously on ski trails lately are males in their teens to 20s. This was met with some resistance.. but I see it with my own eyes and things like this just solidify it more in my mind. I don’t see women behaving in the same manner in nearly the numbers.. or really at all. Though I’m sure there are certainly some.

 

[MissySki]

Colorado appears to have manslaughter and 2nd degree manslaughter. Instead of involuntary and voluntary.

Not sure how much one can parse the below statement without legal knowledge and/or CO legal knowledge. We would say it was reckless, but was it legally provable recklessness?
——————
For you to be convicted of manslaughter in Colorado, the prosecution must prove that you acted recklessly. This is a higher standard than negligence because your actions involve a substantial and unjustifiable risk of death or great bodily injury.
——————

https://www.carelawboulder.com/blog/2022/04/what-colorado-laws-say-about-manslaughter/

Interesting.. especially in CO, that they don’t have a system for this sort of situation. Perhaps, thankfully, a collision induced actual death is very rare. And I guess in terms of whether a skier should be treated as a driver in this sort of situation.. when you drive you go through testing and mandatory classes/procedures to be allowed to drive. And there are rules and they are enforced, sometimes lol. So people are all expected to behave in the same sort of manner or else x happens. So if we are to hold skiers to that level of responsibility, should we also have standards and rules and have to take some test to show our competency to be skiing on the trail with others. With how crowded and reckless people are skiing these days.. maybe that wouldn’t be such a bad thing. People can’t even seem to understand or follow the skier’s code nowadays.

 

[robertc3]

What is happening to our sport?

Nothing that isn't happening to our society as a whole. Place the blame where ever you might, but the reality is that personal responsibility is decreasing and self importance is increasing.

 

[James]

Skiing isn’t driving. Laws should not be directly transferrable from one activity to the next. Doesn’t mean you can’t have reckless in other areas, which CO statute see to say. The big question is what is the meaning or bounds of recklessness, and in particular with skiing.

You have to careful or you end up with situations completely unintended. Like kids sexting, then facing serious jail time for child pornography.

 

[jt10000]

It just came up in another thread recently that the folks we see behaving the most dangerously on ski trails lately are males in their teens to 20s. This was met with some resistance.. but I see it with my own eyes and things like this just solidify it more in my mind. I don’t see women behaving in the same manner in nearly the numbers.. or really at all. Though I’m sure there are certainly some.

Just anecdotally I think you're right. Perhaps somewhat older men too.

 

[johnnyvw]

Interesting.. especially in CO, that they don’t have a system for this sort of situation. Perhaps, thankfully, a collision induced actual death is very rare. And I guess in terms of whether a skier should be treated as a driver in this sort of situation.. when you drive you go through testing and mandatory classes/procedures to be allowed to drive. And there are rules and they are enforced, sometimes lol. So people are all expected to behave in the same sort of manner or else x happens. So if we are to hold skiers to that level of responsibility, should we also have standards and rules and have to take some test to show our competency to be skiing on the trail with others. With how crowded and reckless people are skiing these days.. maybe that wouldn’t be such a bad thing. People can’t even seem to understand or follow the skier’s code nowadays.

When there are no consequences for reckless behavior, there is no incentive to act differently. You don't need classes and tests. Drivers ED certainly doesn;t keep people from doing stupid s*** on the road. If people become aware they may be held responsible, they may think a little more about what they're doing. No guarantee...

After reading through the article about LeMaster, one issue is that if the boarder was under the influence, since police aren;t on the slopes there's no way to check for alcohol. By him taking off, he had enough time to mitigate any smell that people might be able to detect. That's definitely a difference between skiing accidents and vehicle accidents

 

[johnnyvw]

Just anecdotally I think you're right. Perhaps somewhat older men too.

My policy is to not ski any faster than I want to fall. As a result I'm usually the last down the hill. Besides, I like to savor a run...getting down as quickly as possible makes no sense. If I want to go fast I'll go into a NASTAR course.

 

[BLiP]

Just a thought, I don’t know how it factors in –

In order to drive, you need to be licensed. In order to get a license, you need to take some form (varies by state) of education and pass a test. So, once you’re driving, there is a presumption of some knowledge and competence. By contrast, anyone can strap on skis or a board and become a meat missile. No education, no training, no acknowledgement of the “skier’s code”, nothing.

 

[Rudi Riet]

If it was truly an accident that could not have been avoided, then Mr. Martinez should have remained on the scene and cooperated as any motorist is required to do by law. Leaving the scene when the person you hit is unconscious and bleeding from eyes nose and mouth, is deplorable!

As with car violence: it is always a crash, not an accident, when the incident could have been avoided.

Words matter.

The incident with Mr. Martinez was a crash, there was full culpability. Sadly, much as with car violence we have become numbed to the seriousness of things by putting so many plausible deniability loopholes into law that most perpetrators get off with wrist slaps. it's insulting to the victims and allows people to get away with what is, for all intents and purposes, murder.

Should skiing safety laws be more solid, standard, and airtight? Absolutely. Are they completely analogous to driving? No, but the amount of wiggle room that basically plays the perp as a victim is fairly vast in many states and municipalities. Killing a person is a heavy duty, serious crime and the penalties should show that. The "intent" loophole used in LeMaster's murder (and it was murder, full stop) allowed for a person who will undoubtedly do the same move again to go free and set a truly horrific precedent moving forward.

Litigation is only good if it actually sets a precedent where safety and justice actually prevail. And in this case neither did.

</rant>

 

[MissySki]

As with car violence: it is always a crash, not an accident, when the incident could have been avoided.

Words matter.

The incident with Mr. Martinez was a crash, there was full culpability. Sadly, much as with car violence we have become numbed to the seriousness of things by putting so many plausible deniability loopholes into law that most perpetrators get off with wrist slaps. it's insulting to the victims and allows people to get away with what is, for all intents and purposes, murder.

Should skiing safety laws be more solid, standard, and airtight? Absolutely. Are they completely analogous to driving? No, but the amount of wiggle room that basically plays the perp as a victim is fairly vast in many states and municipalities. Killing a person is a heavy duty, serious crime and the penalties should show that. The "intent" loophole used in LeMaster's murder (and it was murder, full stop) allowed for a person who will undoubtedly do the same move again to go free and set a truly horrific precedent moving forward.

Litigation is only good if it actually sets a precedent where safety and justice actually prevail. And in this case neither did.

</rant>

Well said.

 

[James]

The "intent" loophole used in LeMaster's murder (and it was murder, full stop) allowed for a person who will undoubtedly do the same move again to go free and set a truly horrific precedent moving forward.

Don’t think it was legally murder. There’s no intent. That’s not a loophole, it’s the law.
Manslaughter you could go for.

Killing someone with a car walking in the street wouldn’t be murder unless you can show there was intent to do so.

Stephen McDonald, formerly on epic as skiinginjackson, was killed riding his bike. A woman fell asleep and drifted off the road. Afaik, no criminal charges were filed. Had she been drunk, different story I would think.

Now I would assume the kid in Texas who intentionally swerved into the bicycle riders could possibly be charged with murder if someone died. Probably still difficult to prove intent though.

 

[Hankj]

I could not agree more that people violating responsibility codes who injure other people at ski areas should be held legally responsible.

It is made amply it clear to skiers and riders what their responsibilities are. Being swept away in the immature subculture that encourages dangerous skiing is absolutely no excuse. Being a caught up dumbass is no excuse. More enforcement is clearly necessary to counter all of the media young men receive passively encouraging them to ski/board way too fast and out of control.

And don't even get me started on ski run Strava segment KOMs. It's just deplorable that a tech company runs fastest known time contests on open public ski runs. Boo.