Now that Epicski is closed

[Bogatyr]

From someone who was a moderator and site manager during that time, I can confidently say, what you read isn't the whole story. There were several post deletions and edits that no one sees. It was a real mess.

I must have missed the most entertaining part then .

 

[Started at 53]

.... and have the courage to tell them in person what you are telling them with your posts.

I hope not, cuz I'd likely be told to go back to golf

 

[Read Blinn]

I doubt you know this first hand , you only subscribed to Epic short time before me and that means long time after all this had happened. I read some of the archived threads and they were a pretty amusing reading for the most part.Of course there was stuff that was coming again and again and this finally became kind of boring. But I say this as a neutral "spectator" only, not as a participant of any kind.

From someone who was a moderator and site manager during that time, I can confidently say, what you read isn't the whole story. There were several post deletions and edits that no one sees. It was a real mess.

As Trish says, mods see a lot more than the public can — deletions, and also backchannel talk in mod threads. My information comes from those nonpublic sources, and from mods who were active at the time.

 

[Josh Matta]

.... and have the courage to tell them in person what you are telling them with your posts.

yeah I would say anything I have ever posted to someone in person. and I doubt many people going years back on epic would ever say anything they have said to me in person.

 

[James]

The whole "it's too complicated" rant about conversations is silly. If you don't understand ask. Often someone will lay it out. One isn't broadcasting on tv here. (There's a low bar.) Not everyone speaks or writes as clearly and there's no requirement for such. No one talks on the hill like those in depth conversations. Yet we always get "you make everything so complicated, I just ski".

Conversations often go into minutia or take odd tangents. When physics gets involved it's a real mess as engineers argue with physicists and we've even had dueling phd's in physics calling each other clueless.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

The technical instruction threads devolved over the years and turned into the "I am better than you. I know more than you. My way is the only way" instead of back and forth discussions about ski instruction. I got tired of sifting through those threads for solid content. I like learning and hearing different perspectives from others, no matter what system or style. I don't like condescending, know it all, everyone else sucks and I am the best postings and stay away from posters and threads which contain those kinds of people and statements.

I got banned from the PMTS forum for suggesting that Tyler Hamilton was a doper. I hate it when I am wrong.

 

[Josh Matta]

The technical instruction threads devolved over the years and turned into the "I am better than you. I know more than you. My way is the only way" instead of back and forth discussions about ski instruction. I got tired of sifting through those threads for solid content. I like learning and hearing different perspectives from others, no matter what system or style. I don't like condescending, know it all, everyone else sucks and I am the best postings and stay away from posters and threads which contain those kinds of people and statements.

I got banned from the PMTS forum for suggesting that Tyler Hamilton was a doper. I hate it when I am wrong.

the thing is there shouldnt be any opinion on how a person interacts with the world in any physical sport.

 

[Read Blinn]

the thing is there shouldnt be any opinion on how a person interacts with the world in any physical sport.

?

 

[pais alto]

the thing is in my opinion there shouldnt be any opinion on how a person interacts with the world in any physical sport.

FIFY

 

[Josh Matta]

Yeha putting in my mouth. I speak very deliberately these days to make sure there is no mistaking the signal.

Whether people like or not Ill repeat myself. There should be no opinion on how someone interacts in the physical world. IE despite the numerous opinions out there on how people should do certain thing on skis, in the end there are more right and more wrong answer. You can think in your opinion that Pais is treating me wrongly and that is an ok opinion to have, but to think that something like skiing should have opinions on what is being done, just means you think everyone should get a participation medal, and the instruction forms on this site will be doomed to become the epic static all over again.

you can still have discussion with out having opinions.

 

[crgildart]

the thing is there shouldnt be any opinion on how a person interacts with the world in any physical sport.

Unless the nature of the job involves private interaction with children..

 

[Mendieta]

.... and have the courage to tell them in person what you are telling them with your posts.

I don't understand why we would want to say things that take any courage. Which seems to be predicated on a high level of personal confrontation or tension. And we all know there is no room for that in Pugski.

The way I read @markojp 's post, is that you should post as if you were having a friendly conversation with folks on the lift. You will have different opinions on certain things, which is actually a good thing. Or chatting about things après, or in a lunch break.

 

[Monique]

I don't understand why we would want to say things that take any courage. Which seems to be predicated on a high level of personal confrontation or tension. And we all know there is no room for that in Pugski.

Thank you for putting into words my gut dislike for that comment.

 

[Monique]

The whole "it's too complicated" rant about conversations is silly. If you don't understand ask. Often someone will lay it out. One isn't broadcasting on tv here. (There's a low bar.) Not everyone speaks or writes as clearly and there's no requirement for such. No one talks on the hill like those in depth conversations. Yet we always get "you make everything so complicated, I just ski".

Conversations often go into minutia or take odd tangents. When physics gets involved it's a real mess as engineers argue with physicists and we've even had dueling phd's in physics calling each other clueless.

I can't follow technical discussions about skiing if the post goes above about five sentences. Need an in-person instructor, and less verbiage. So FOR ME I've found it's not worth asking, as I usually can't follow the clarification either. Or perhaps am unwilling to invest the time to fully grok it.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't have these discussions, but I usually lose interest in the thread. And I can well imagine that a beginner-to-intermediate who posts a question would be at least as lost as I am, and possibly put off of their own thread.

I believe marznc (dunno if she's here) worked hard to keep posts in the epic beginner area to a certain level so that actual beginners could benefit. I think that having a place for simplified discussion is important, too.

 

[skibob]

I don't understand why we would want to say things that take any courage. Which seems to be predicated on a high level of personal confrontation or tension. And we all know there is no room for that in Pugski.

The way I read @markojp 's post, is that you should post as if you were having a friendly conversation with folks on the lift. You will have different opinions on certain things, which is actually a good thing. Or chatting about things après, or in a lunch break.

I like to think that friends sometimes tell friends things that are difficult for them to hear. I'll tell them things I won't say to random person on lift. We are probably somewhere in between those two extremes here. But I think to @Bogatyr point you can say, "I disagree, I think its like x" or "No, you're not considering y". I'll say that to your face or online. Contrast that with "Only an idiot, completely devoid of knowledge of physics would think the world is so simple as . . . " I wouldn't say that online and I certainly wouldn't say it to your face. Because I'm just not that kind of jerk. Not that kind .

Anyway, I took @Bogatyr comment to be "courage" with a small "c". Not a cap "C". I also associate it with "caring enough" to participate.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The stealthy way some folks can do damage to the atmosphere in a thread that involves some disagreement is to repeat, repeat, repeat their point without giving an inch, never agreeing to disagree, and never simply letting it go. They repeat their point endlessly in order to shut objectors down, as if the last one posting is the one who "wins" the argument. This was common during the PMTS vs The World days at Epic. It also happened afterwards, but not as relentlessly.

That tactic sometimes slips past moderators since there's no specific rule against repeating your point. The repeater gets free rein to continue, and those posts can eventually drive those of differing opinion into a state of rage. This is how a stealthy repeater can lead good people to lose their cool. The train wreck will have been going on for a long time with no personal attacks and no offensive language, but when a good guy finally goes ballistic, moderators may think they have no choice but to finally act against the good guy, when it's their fault this happened in the first place.

I haven't seen this happen here yet. Hope it doesn't.

 

[Swede]

I liked Marko's comment; my take on it is exactly what I tell my 12 & 15 y/o at home -- online is no different from afk. Don't say anything you wouldn't tell someone to their face.

 

[pais alto]

I was teasing you @Josh Matta, it was a joke. Rule 1a.

 

[skibob]

The stealthy way some folks can do damage to the atmosphere in a thread that involves some disagreement is to repeat, repeat, repeat their point without giving an inch, never agreeing to disagree, and never simply letting it go. They repeat their point endlessly in order to shut objectors down, as if the last one posting is the one who "wins" the argument. This was common during the PMTS vs The World days at Epic. It also happened afterwards, but not as relentlessly.

That tactic sometimes slips past moderators since there's no specific rule against repeating your point. The repeater gets free rein to continue, and those posts can eventually drive those of differing opinion into a state of rage. This is how a stealthy repeater can lead good people to lose their cool. The train wreck will have been going on for a long time with no personal attacks and no offensive language, but when a good guy finally goes ballistic, moderators may think they have no choice but to finally act against the good guy, when it's their fault this happened in the first place.

I haven't seen this happen here yet. Hope it doesn't.

Also, being tyrannical about language. I've sometimes seen two people saying mol the same thing with different vocab. And one or both of them insisting that their way of saying it is right (over and over, as you point out). I usually tune out at that point . . .

 

[LiquidFeet]

Oh, and here's another tactic used by people to "win" a disagreement. The ones trying to "win," when their typed reasons for their side of the story don't convert their opposition, choose to tell the other parties that they shouldn't care about this, to stop being so sensitive, or to Lighten up Francis. No offensive words are there, and there's no direct name-calling. But that tactic is meant to shut the opposition up so the last one posting wins. It implies there's something wrong with the objector's personality or character, without overtly using a label.

This way of "winning" a disagreement is often used when the topic has to do with how people are treated, not when people are talking about how skis or movement patterns function nor how technical concepts are defined. I've never seen moderators stop bullies from using this tactic. I wish they would.