Lots of questions: experienced and inexperienced skier at the same time.

[nightingale]

Just to clear up the skate thing, radius is a geometric term with meaning (distance from the centre of a circle to the edge of the circle). Both blade hollow and blade profile are measured using a radius. For the hollow, you typically have a radius of 3/8" to over 1".

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For the profile, you typically have something between 7' and 12'..or any combination thereof. You could have a 7' on the front, an 8' on the back and a 10' in the middle.
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It's kinda interesting to see which NHL players use which hollow and profile...

Thanks. I was referring to industry terms (aka what pros say when we walk into a skate shop). We ask for blades with a 8' rocker, 8' 17" profile, or half inch radius. Obviously not those exact numbers because everyone is unique, those are just the numbers I use (though I've always wanted to try 5/8" radius). But I could see how that's confusing for people outside the sport and should have clarified, so thank you.

As for what the pros use: with figure skating it's a lot easier because I can tell what blade (aka profile) someone is using from miles away (though I can't tell their radius). Pros also all use the same 5 or 6 blades because blade makers are lazy and won't come out with more high level ones (technically there's no demand for them so they have no reason to). Once you get to triple jumps there's literally only 6 well made profiles you can choose from and only one of the is a triple (the rest are doubles) and only two of them are 7' (the rest are 8'). Those on double jumps have exactly two more choices, both being doubles with 7' rockers and one is just a better version of the other so make that 1 more choice. They all look slightly different though. We also have differences in our toe picks. Some have two lines of teeth and some only have one and they're different sizes.

 

[Tricia]

TBH I didn't really know where to put it because it's multiple different questions haha.

You, and this thread remind me of the early days of @Stephen when he began to ski. (I think it was 6 years ago. He'll correct me if I'm wrong) Because he is a professional ballroom dancer he picked up skiing really quick. He knows where every inch of his body is at all times and it shows in his skiing.

Likewise, I have a friend in Michigan who was a hockey player. He picked it up quick too!

 

[scott43]

Thanks. I was referring to industry terms (aka what pros say when we walk into a skate shop). We ask for blades with a 8' rocker, 8' 17" profile, or half inch radius. Obviously not those exact numbers because everyone is unique, those are just the numbers I use (though I've always wanted to try 5/8" radius). But I could see how that's confusing for people outside the sport and should have clarified, so thank you.

As for what the pros use: with figure skating it's a lot easier because I can tell what blade (aka profile) someone is using from miles away (though I can't tell their radius). Pros also all use the same 5 or 6 blades because blade makers are lazy and won't come out with more high level ones (technically there's no demand for them so they have no reason to). Once you get to triple jumps there's literally only 6 well made profiles you can choose from and only one of the is a triple (the rest are doubles) and only two of them are 7' (the rest are 8'). Those on double jumps have exactly two more choices, both being doubles with 7' rockers and one is just a better version of the other so make that 1 more choice. They all look slightly different though. We also have differences in our toe picks. Some have two lines of teeth and some only have one and they're different sizes.

Typically, NHL players use much flatter hollows that I'd imagined. Mostly 5/8" or larger. A lot around 3/4" to 1". I find somewhere between 5/8" and 3/4" works for me..they also hold an edge longer. When sharpened by a good sharpener, I can get 5-8 games out of them. Profile is harder to find..I am lazy and tend to a smaller radius than when I was younger. I'm also not the greatest skater..so may not be a great point of reference!!

 

[jt10000]

You, and this thread remind me of the early days of @Stephen when he began to ski. (I think it was 6 years ago. He'll correct me if I'm wrong) Because he is a professional ballroom dancer he picked up skiing really quick. He knows where every inch of his body is at all times and it shows in his skiing.

Likewise, I have a friend in Michigan who was a hockey player. He picked it up quick too!

It seems to me that the original author knows a ton about ski boot fit via their high-level expertise in skating - they just don't realize how much is transferable. A pro athlete in skating - yup.

 

[Tricia]

It seems to me that the original author knows a ton about ski boot fit via their high-level expertise in skating - they just don't realize how much is transferable. A pro athlete in skating - yup.

Right!!??
If I were a beginner, reading this thread, I think my head would spin. But as the OP says, "Where would this conversation fit?"
My inclination is to put it in the Hardgoods or Masterfit Sponsored Boots area.

 

[nightingale]

Typically, NHL players use much flatter hollows that I'd imagined. Mostly 5/8" or larger. A lot around 3/4" to 1". I find somewhere between 5/8" and 3/4" works for me..they also hold an edge longer. When sharpened by a good sharpener, I can get 5-8 games out of them. Profile is harder to find..I am lazy and tend to a smaller radius than when I was younger. I'm also not the greatest skater..so may not be a great point of reference!!

For us it's edge depth > speed. For hockey its speed > edge depth. A deeper radius will cause more drag (as will rust as I found out this morning :/) A shallower one will cause one to fall on deep edges if they don't do them perfectly. I really really really want to try 5/8 but I'm also kind of scared. I know a girl who skates on 3/4 for figure skating and I put on her skates once (we're professionals so like... it's not the most dangerous thing we've ever done and our skates are very very very similar, same size and similar shapes) and was slippin and slidin around. Anyway, sooooo off topic haha.

And I think @nightingale knows a ton about ski boots (at least boot fit) - just might not realize it.

This made me feel a whole lot better tbh. Less overwhelmed.

You, and this thread remind me of the early days of @Stephen when he began to ski. (I think it was 6 years ago. He'll correct me if I'm wrong) Because he is a professional ballroom dancer he picked up skiing really quick. He knows where every inch of his body is at all times and it shows in his skiing.

Likewise, I have a friend in Michigan who was a hockey player. He picked it up quick too!

I once had a coach tell me that because I was athletic I could pick up any sport quickly. It was the higher level stuff that would mess with me.
That proved to not be true when I tried snowboarding but he was almost correct.

 

[Uncle-A]

I once had a coach tell me that because I was athletic I could pick up any sport quickly. It was the higher level stuff that would mess with me.
That proved to not be true when I tried snowboarding but he was almost correct.

I use to be a surfer but I couldn't get use to a skateboard and when I tried to use a snowboard it was not as much fun as skiing. Some sports transfer well others do not. Being a good athlete will always help you, let's face it good balance and coordination is not gift everyone gets. Some of us have to make do with lesser quantity and qualities of both.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I use these. Most skaters do thinner, but the thinner socks rip really easily and at 11 dollars a pair, 30 hours a week skating... not happening. The added friction (good friction, not blister friction) is also a plus in really making sure my foot doesn't move. But if I need to go thinner in skis, so be it.

Those are thin enough. But whatever they have in them that keeps the foot from moving around inside the boot, that shouldn't be necessary. The part of the ski boot is meant to NOT allow the foot to move inside the boot when you are skiing. Not at all. Nada.

When the ankle bends, the boot cuff bends with it.

 

[nightingale]

Those are thin enough. But whatever they have in them that keeps the foot from moving around inside the boot, that shouldn't be necessary. The part of the ski boot is meant to NOT allow the foot to move inside the boot when you are skiing. Not at all. Nada.

When the ankle bends, the boot cuff bends with it.

They aren't meant for that, just a side effect. Skates are the same way. That doesn't stop microscopic movements from happening. The foot is compressible, it will move even if it's just a little, if it wants to.

 

[newboots]

Socks that thin would be good, as @LiquidFeet says. You probably want them to come up above your calf (past the boot cuff). Smartwool makes good light and ultralight socks, as do some other brands.

It's so interesting to hear your perspective and your expertise in a somewhat different sport. The snug skate and ski boots are all about control, and it didn't take any time for you to connect that.

 

[Carl]

I think there are two sides to this, I and many others feel that a ski can't tell how tall you are but it can tell how much you weigh just by standing on it. I have thought for a long time and more and more people are starting to think the same way, especially since the wide skis have come along.

I've thought about this as well and generally agree with you. But I think something to consider is that with height comes longer legs and specifically a longer tibia. It seems that a person with a longer tibia will impart more pressure on the boot (increased ft-lbs of torque) which translates to more power delivered to the ski. I was thinking that may lead to requiring a longer ski for stability.

 

[nightingale]

I've thought about this as well and generally agree with you. But I think something to consider is that with height comes longer legs and specifically a longer tibia. It seems that a person with a longer tibia will impart more pressure on the boot (increased ft-lbs of torque) which translates to more power delivered to the ski. I was thinking that may lead to requiring a longer ski for stability.

I feel like the weight would still be enough of a guideline except in extreme scenarios because average weight increases with height and decreases with less height. If someone is a foot taller than me and my weight, they'd probably be dead.

 

[Uncle-A]

I've thought about this as well and generally agree with you. But I think something to consider is that with height comes longer legs and specifically a longer tibia. It seems that a person with a longer tibia will impart more pressure on the boot (increased ft-lbs of torque) which translates to more power delivered to the ski. I was thinking that may lead to requiring a longer ski for stability.

I have put some time thinking that very same idea and it was probably true for old style straight skis, I just don't know if it is as applicable to the new fat skis.

 

[Carl]

I have put some time thinking that very same idea and it was probably true for old style straight skis, I just don't know if it is as applicable to the new fat skis.

I think it still has relevance with the new shaped skis. Perhaps not as much but still some impact.

 

[Uncle-A]

I think it still has relevance with the new shaped skis. Perhaps not as much but still some impact.

I am 6' 1" and one of the guys I ski with is 5' 10" so even if the 3 inch difference is all in my legs and I don't think it is, how much more pressure will a lever that is 3 inches longer add to the ski? I know we must have an engineer out in the community that can do the math.

 

[Carl]

I am 6' 1" and one of the guys I ski with is 5' 10" so even if the 3 inch difference is all in my legs and I don't think it is, how much more pressure will a lever that is 3 inches longer add to the ski? I know we must have an engineer out in the community that can do the math.

I'm an electrical engineer so we really need a mechanical engineer to do this right. But in general I think it comes down to measuring the force applied to the boot from a force originating at the knee. I know that a rotational force say using a socket wrench on a bolt would be T=FA where T is the torque, F is the force applied on the end of the wrench, and A is the length of the wrench. If you apply 50 pounds of force on a 10 inch wrench you get 41.67 ft-lbs of torque. On a 12 inch wrench you get 50 ft-lbs of torque. A 20% increase. I think measuring the force applied to the boot is a little different because the rotational force is across a larger surface area and not at a single point like on a bolt head. But the general principal is similar.

 

[Tom K.]

@nightingale, you'll know you have found your new boot when your fitter gets you into it and you think "hey, now that is my foot....but a little tight".

 

[Uncle-A]

I'm an electrical engineer so we really need a mechanical engineer to do this right. But in general I think it comes down to measuring the force applied to the boot from a force originating at the knee. I know that a rotational force say using a socket wrench on a bolt would be T=FA where T is the torque, F is the force applied on the end of the wrench, and A is the length of the wrench. If you apply 50 pounds of force on a 10 inch wrench you get 41.67 ft-lbs of torque. On a 12 inch wrench you get 50 ft-lbs of torque. A 20% increase. I think measuring the force applied to the boot is a little different because the rotational force is across a larger surface area and not at a single point like on a bolt head. But the general principal is similar.

None of the formulas would take into account if the shorter leg is stronger than the longer leg. What one lacks in in strength has to be made up by finesse and the stronger person can simply muscle the ski around, so how do you figure the correct length of a ski between the two different skiers, I think that the best way is skier weight. Especially since some people are heavier due to muscle being heavier than fat.

 

[Carl]

None of the formulas would take into account if the shorter leg is stronger than the longer leg. What one lacks in in strength has to be made up by finesse and the stronger person can simply muscle the ski around, so how do you figure the correct length of a ski between the two different skiers, I think that the best way is skier weight. Especially since some people are heavier due to muscle being heavier than fat.

In my example, that 20% increase in force is generated simply by having an extra two inches with all else being equal. Generating force is more than just weight and strength. For example a block and tackle allows a 100 pound woman to lift a one ton load by giving her mechanical advantage. A longer tibia gives a person a mechanical advantage. That's just basic physics.

 

[François Pugh]

A ski is a beam, designed to carry a load from the the whole ski including the tips and tails to the support (foot). The key factor is your weight, your height has a secondary effect. I estimate (WAG method of estimation) height's effect is about 10% as much as your weight's if you know how to use it.
The force needed to turn varies as your mass, your speed squared and varies inversely as the radius of your turn. Your height allows you some advantage in putting more of that force to the tips or tails as you desire.