First Time Buyer - All the Mistakes

[Tony Storaro]

My objection is that there is no reason to treat him disrespectfully because he's a newbie making a newbie mistake. Don't we like to bring new folks into the fold?

Yes, yes, absolutely. I wasn't arguing your point, just thought of another activity where getting right the fit of the equipment is of utmost importance as getting it wrong leads to long term frustrations.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Why aren't sports more straightforward?!

They would be. If we all had the same body measurements.

 

[jt10000]

Bingo.
My gut feeling is the boot guy already know the boot will be too big and/or wrong shape/fit for the feet. Trying to convince the customer of those deficiencies can not be remedied is akin to pissing in the wind. Might as well nip it the bud. I have hung around my "local" shop to see this play out over and over again.

He's nipping it in the bud with all sorts of passive/aggressive comments instead of saying "No, we don't work on boots not bought in a dedicated ski shop."

Or, if he wants business, saying "Most people buy boots that are too large, so if you come in there is no guarantee they'll be appropriate for you, despite how they feel now. I can't work on them if they're not the right size and shape for your foot, and our minimum fee of $X would still apply. We can look at other boots during the time if that happens. In fact, I'd want to start from scratch checking you, your feet and thinking about what's best. Bring in your current boots in case they do work for you. Then we can move to footbeds or other tweaks. Can I schedule you?"

I mean, this isn't rocket science (the customer service aspect) - especially if it happens a lot. If it happens a lot, develop a script that works most of the time. Then be more obnoxious for the ones that don't listen.

And this "Thats a brand that we sell the least of. Most people find those boots are the least comfortable of the brands I sell" should be "Wow, I'm surprised because those fit very few people's feet; I'd want to check if they're right for your foot. If they're not I'm sure we can find something more appropriate; we have 27 other boots." It might feel a little "upselly" but that's what the shop should want to do, right?

Though maybe being a dick is the script and they want a reputation of being prickly so other people don't come in. But I sure wouldn't come in even to buy if I heard that story.

 

[newboots]

^^ yes

 

[KingGrump]

He's nipping it in the bud with all sorts of passive/aggressive comments instead of saying "No, we don't work on boots not bought in a dedicated ski shop."

Or, if he wants business, saying "Most people buy boots that are too large, so if you come in there is no guarantee they'll be appropriate for you, despite how they feel now. I can't work on them if they're not the right size and shape for your foot, and our minimum fee of $X would still apply. We can look at other boots during the time if that happens. In fact, I'd want to start from scratch checking you, your feet and thinking about what's best. Bring in your current boots in case they do work for you. Then we can move to footbeds or other tweaks. Can I schedule you?"

I mean, this isn't rocket science (the customer service aspect) - especially if it happens a lot. If it happens a lot, develop a script that works most of the time. Then be more obnoxious for the ones that don't listen.

And this "Thats a brand that we sell the least of. Most people find those boots are the least comfortable of the brands I sell" should be "Wow, I'm surprised because those fit very few people's feet; I'd want to check if they're right for your foot. If they're not I'm sure we can find something more appropriate; we have 27 other boots." It might feel a little "upselly" but that's what the shop should want to do, right?

Though maybe being a dick is the script and they want a reputation of being prickly so other people don't come in. But I sure wouldn't come in even to buy if I heard that story.

Usually it takes two to tango.
We are only hearing one side of it.

TBH, some customers are just not worth having.

 

[backdoor]

Usually it takes two to tango.
We are only hearing one side of it.

TBH, some customers are just not worth having.

I was listening to the latest GEAR:30 podcast last night and Jonathan Ellsworth was interviewing Greg Klein, owner of the Willi's ski shops in PA. During the interview they got into a discussion about sales and Greg's approach to creating the culture that surrounds that. It was a perfect parallel with the discussion we are getting into on this thread and I won't go through all the details, you can go listen to it for yourself. But I did want to quote something Jonathon said in response to Greg's approach of "taking care of peoples dreams"

Jonathon (Blister) - "In the ski shop world or the bike shop world there's sort of a genre of crusty or surly shop owner or shop staff and it's a a little bit "too cool for school" and you are kind of annoying them by coming in with your newbie questions or intermediate questions and I hate that. I absolutely hate that. And among our recommended shops if we find that is happening at a shop, that is one of the quickest ways for us to say that isn't a fit.

Greg (Willi's) - "If there's no enthusiasm you are not going to make it in this day and age"

I think that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Crank]

I was listening to the latest GEAR:30 podcast last night and Jonathan Ellsworth was interviewing Greg Klein, owner of the Willi's ski shops in PA. During the interview they got into a discussion about sales and Greg's approach to creating the culture that surrounds that. It was a perfect parallel with the discussion we are getting into on this thread and I won't go through all the details, you can go listen to it for yourself. But I did want to quote something Jonathon said in response to Greg's approach of "taking care of peoples dreams"

Jonathon (Blister) - "In the ski shop world or the bike shop world there's sort of a genre of crusty or surly shop owner or shop staff and it's a a little bit "too cool for school" and you are kind of annoying them by coming in with your newbie questions or intermediate questions and I hate that. I absolutely hate that. And among our recommended shops if we find that is happening at a shop, that is one of the quickest ways for us to say that isn't a fit.

Greg (Willi's) - "If there's no enthusiasm you are not going to make it in this day and age"

I think that pretty much sums it up.

QFT.

Judging from this thread I think that @backdoor is a very reasonable person. He may not yet know what he doesn't know, but, he is learning. His boots may fit just fine. I would not assume from anything he has said.... possibly I missed something... that they don't fit or that they are not boots that will work for him.

I have certainly run up agains shop guys with a grudge more than once. Had different shops contradict each other. This goes beyond ski shops and bike shops to almost any walk of life. One time a ski instructor friend of my friend told me upon first meeting up in the parking lot that if I wanted to ski better I should get new boots. I then proceeded to ski him into the dirt.

Everyone's journey is not the same. Everyone's feet are not the same either.

 

[jt10000]

Usually it takes two to tango.
We are only hearing one side of it.

So how about this - can we have a discussion on the behavior assuming that is reported is accurate? Because some people are still giving the shop owner too much slack.

If the shop was named, it would be very important to interrogate if what is reported is true. Their reputation is on the line. Otherwise it's waste of time to speculate on if things were true. We don't know. Let's talk about what was presented as long as it's plausible (which is is)- which it means assuming it's accurate.

I've experienced the surly shop person (mainly in cycling) enough to be tired of it.

Also, everything Crank said above.

TBH, some customers are just not worth having.

So, is the way the shop owner is reported to have dealt with it appropriate? And even if the OP is not giving the "whole story", I'd be curious how you think a customer should be fired. My script "We don't work on boots not bought in a dedicated ski shop" seems pretty appropriate.

 

[jt10000]

QFT.

Judging from this thread I think that @backdoor is a very reasonable person. He may not yet know what he doesn't know, but, he is learning. His boots may fit just fine. I would not assume from anything he has said.... possibly I missed something... that they don't fit or that they are not boots that will work for him.

And even if he's way off base and they don't fit, there's a better way for the shop to deal with it - that'll both help him and make a strong sale more likely. A win-win.

But maybe the shop has too much business and it's not worth their time dealing with him.

 

[newboots]

One time a ski instructor friend of my friend told me upon first meeting up in the parking lot that if I wanted to ski better I should get new boots.

I hope he was embarrassed. Skiing great is the best revenge!

 

[Philpug]

I was listening to the latest GEAR:30 podcast last night and Jonathan Ellsworth was interviewing Greg Klein, owner of the Willi's ski shops in PA. During the interview they got into a discussion about sales and Greg's approach to creating the culture that surrounds that. It was a perfect parallel with the discussion we are getting into on this thread and I won't go through all the details, you can go listen to it for yourself. But I did want to quote something Jonathon said in response to Greg's approach of "taking care of peoples dreams"

Jonathon (Blister) - "In the ski shop world or the bike shop world there's sort of a genre of crusty or surly shop owner or shop staff and it's a a little bit "too cool for school" and you are kind of annoying them by coming in with your newbie questions or intermediate questions and I hate that. I absolutely hate that. And among our recommended shops if we find that is happening at a shop, that is one of the quickest ways for us to say that isn't a fit.

Greg (Willi's) - "If there's no enthusiasm you are not going to make it in this day and age"

I think that pretty much sums it up.

The ironic thing is some think Blister is a site that is "too cool for school" with how they review.

There are few basic sales philosophies I have, "People do not care how much you know, until they see how much you care","You have two ears and one mouth, use them in proportion" and "No one likes to be sold, but everyone loves to buy". Talking to and not over a customer is also key. There is a shop we (Tricia and I) do some consulting work with that the staff loves when we come in and help because they like the way we work with and talk to customers, skiing is supposed to be fun, we have fun with the customers.

I have been told that we are too basic or simple some times in reviewing and that we cater to more "recreational" skiers. well as @Andy Mink says (quoting Revenge of the Nerds) "There are a lot more of us (nerds) than there are of you (jocks)". We really try to make SkiTalk and accepting environment and not talk over people, for many that works, for some it is not enough but we feel it is best, but we are also always evolving and learning because we understand what got us here with a level of success, might not get us where we eventually want to be.

 

[jt10000]

"You have two ears and one mouth, use them in proportion" and "No one likes to be sold, but everyone loves to buy". Talking to and not over a customer is also key.

Listening well is almost a superpower - and it can be learned and improved.

Here's a video about listening that I wrote and helped produce.

 

[Philpug]

Listening well is almost a superpower - and it can be learned and improved.

Here's a video I wrote and helped produce for my day job about listening.

Funny is that I still cannot remember someone's name 30 seconds after they tell me, yet I can remember what car they bought in 2003 or recognize them in the lift line by the skis I sold them in 2011.

 

[Andy Mink]

Funny is that I still cannot remember someone's name 30 seconds after they tell me, yet I can remember what car they bought in 2003 or recognize them in the lift line by the skis I sold them in 2011.

Or their dog's name.

 

[jt10000]

I was listening to the latest GEAR:30 podcast last night and Jonathan Ellsworth was interviewing Greg Klein, owner of the Willi's ski shops in PA. During the interview they got into a discussion about sales and Greg's approach to creating the culture that surrounds that. It was a perfect parallel with the discussion we are getting into on this thread and I won't go through all the details, you can go listen to it for yourself. But I did want to quote something Jonathon said in response to Greg's approach of "taking care of peoples dreams"

Jonathon (Blister) - "In the ski shop world or the bike shop world there's sort of a genre of crusty or surly shop owner or shop staff and it's a a little bit "too cool for school" and you are kind of annoying them by coming in with your newbie questions or intermediate questions and I hate that. I absolutely hate that. And among our recommended shops if we find that is happening at a shop, that is one of the quickest ways for us to say that isn't a fit.

Greg (Willi's) - "If there's no enthusiasm you are not going to make it in this day and age"

I think that pretty much sums it up.

That's a great listen. The enthusiasm and attitude is great - and not in a random way. It's a philosophy of fun and customer service and management and loving it.

 

[newboots]

Yes, thanks for mentioning that podcast. I needed another skiing podcast!

 

[backdoor]

Hit the Evo Portland store yesterday with my son and let me just say I had a great experience there. Staff and boot fitter were great.

After the initial indemnification issue I had with the older skis, unbeknownst to my son I just ended up buying him new skis and bindings. When we got to the store I pulled out the printed order and told him to give it to the guy behind the counter. My son didn't look at the ticket and wasn't sure what we were doing but you should have seen his face when the guy behind the counter came up with the new skis. He was totally stoked. The energy was so infectious that the Evo staff were as stoked for him as he was to get them.

Once the excitement dropped a notch we got on the list to see the bootfitter. I explained my situation and the guy behind the counter said they had no issues helping someone with existing boots.

They were super busy and it took well over an hour before they got me in but once I was in it was no problem getting these boots dialed in. Had to make some adjustments with my high arched feet and he baked the liners for me but when all was said and done it felt like I had put casts on my legs and the only thing I could wiggle was my toes.

Things that the bootfitter helped with -

1. The standard footbed in these Xpro 120s is a medium to low arch. My foot had a high arch so putting in a footbed with a high arch helped to support my foot and also put more support under my heel and helped to lock the heel into the pocket.

2. The issue I have always had with high arched feet in boots is that the top of my foot presses into the instep of the boot causing pain. Bootfitter was able to relieve that pressure by adding foam to my foot where the pain was and after baking the liners the foam pressed into the liners just enough to relive the pressure but still fit tightly without causing pain in the top of my foot. I was impressed with how well this worked.

3. The one concern the bootfitter had with these boots is the spacious toebox. He was concerned with my toes bumping into the front of the boot. He said we are good now with the foot locked in but over time the liner will start to compress and if my foot is able to move the toe may start bumping into the front of the boot causing some toe pain. He told me what to look out for and if it starts to become problematic to come back and see him.

So we had a great day overall. Left both pairs of skis to get mounted, tuned and waxed. The fitting cost 75$ and with the sale they had it included the footbed and a pair of socks. Worth every penny.

So lesson learned - Take care of your feet first and get your boots dialed in before you buy anything new or get anything mounted. It was totally worth the 75$ I spent to get these boots dialed in. And knowing what I know now I would spend the money and see the fitter before buying my next pair of boots.

Also - the cost of seeing your kids stoked over ski gear is priceless.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Congrats on a great boot at an amazing bargain. Over 250 days on my 2019 X-Pros. Perfect boot that can give all day comfort with high performance. Sadly will need to retire mine after a few more ski days and go shopping. Boots only last so long.

 

[backdoor]

Congrats on a great boot at an amazing bargain. Over 250 days on my 2019 X-Pros. Perfect boot that can give all day comfort with high performance. Sadly will need to retire mine after a few more ski days and go shopping. Boots only last so long.

250 days! That's fantastic. If I could get 50 days a year and get these boots to last for 5 years it would be a dream.

How often did you find yourself having to replace the liners over those 250 days of skiing?

 

[Guy in Shorts]

250 days! That's fantastic. If I could get 50 days a year and get these boots to last for 5 years it would be a dream.

How often did you find yourself having to replace the liners over those 250 days of skiing?

Zero - I replace the boot as the liners are good for 250-300 days. Liners are dried every day with forced air. These are my third pair of X-Pro 120's as I bought my first pair in 2015. Every two years I must decide if I want to replace liners and pads or just buy a new pair. I've pounded that plastic shell just as hard as the liners so it makes sense in my world to buy a whole new boot.