First Time Buyer - All the Mistakes

[dbostedo]

It's called curbside qualifying. When I was selling Volvos on the Main Line, you do NOT want to do that with all of the old money, but it was an easy trap for the newbies. I remember one of the names of Janney Montgomery Scott coming in an old POS Ford Contour base model with steelies and 2 missing hubcaps, salesman scattered. This was someone who could buy the dealership 10x over and we wouldn't even notice a blip on his bank statement, this is wealth (You know the difference between rich and wealth? Rich people know how much money they have). NEVER prequalify someone.

I once had a salesman tell me that as a new college grad, there's no way I'd be able to afford the car I told him I was thinking about. I was really surprised, since he had no idea what my particular situation was - it could have been my parents buying me a graduation present for all he knew. (Plus I could have afforded it.) Needless to say, when I went back to look again, I worked with a different salesman. I didn't end up buying there, so maybe it's moot anyway; but he wasn't going to get my business. (And I bought a similarly priced car.)

 

[Tony Storaro]

Some experienced buyers have made all the mistakes - others fly across Europe to get good service and a good fit.

Flying across Europe for botfitting is the result of making all the mistakes.
I mentioned somewhere in this thread how many pairs of boots I had been through before going to these guys, bless them.
The importance of good bootfitting just cannot be emphasized enough, so first time buyers-please, please, pretty please, with a cherry on top-find a good bootfitter.

 

[Andy Mink]

I get the customer thing. In Reno, we're pretty laid back. Old blue jeans, worn boots, and t-shirts. For nice occasions many folks wear new blue jeans, new boots, and a nice western shirt. Buying a car, a house, or skis and boots is not a nice occasion. Salesmen, beware. The dusty old guy in the 1970s beater truck may own a 10,000 acre ranch, a casino, or a construction company and be worth millions. You get money by saving it. Treat everyone like they can buy what they want.

 

[MikeW Philly]

It's called curbside qualifying. When I was selling Volvos on the Main Line, you do NOT want to do that with all of the old money, but it was an easy trap for the newbies. I remember one of the names of Janney Montgomery Scott coming in an old POS Ford Contour base model with steelies and 2 missing hubcaps, salesman scattered. This was someone who could buy the dealership 10x over and we wouldn't even notice a blip on his bank statement, this is wealth (You know the difference between rich and wealth? Rich people know how much money they have). NEVER prequalify someone.

Agreed. I never understood why sales reps did this in my own fields but they do. Hell I had it happen to me at the Main Line Audi 9 years ago now where they just assumed at 28 I couldn’t afford the car. The young rep who took care of me got a quick purchase that day.

As to prequalifying against clothes; common at the luxury dealers. IT’s something I always found amusing. 90% of the wealthy people I know all tend to dress comfortably. yes some dress up but it’s a lot more rare thaN you might thing. I never understood that one.

 

[François Pugh]

It's called curbside qualifying. When I was selling Volvos on the Main Line, you do NOT want to do that with all of the old money, but it was an easy trap for the newbies. I remember one of the names of Janney Montgomery Scott coming in an old POS Ford Contour base model with steelies and 2 missing hubcaps, salesman scattered. This was someone who could buy the dealership 10x over and we wouldn't even notice a blip on his bank statement, this is wealth (You know the difference between rich and wealth? Rich people know how much money they have). NEVER prequalify someone.

I've been pre-disqualified quite often at stealerships. So far it's caused four new cars to be bought elsewhere. I won't count used, as I get used cars through other connections.

My dad, who was much better at bargaining than I am, ran into a slight variation on this - the sales man is willing to put a small amount of time into talking with you but won't make any effort to deal, i.e. sticks to msrp (on a car that isn't really a hot seller). My dad ended up buying the car somewhere else and came back to show them what he had bought (for a reasonable/fair price).

 

[newboots]

If we treat newbies like sh*t when they've done something that, in their world, was a completely reasonable thing to do, are they going to want to continue to ski/shop in that store/engage with bootfitters?

Road cycling comes to mind. Very similar to bootfitting. Sure, you can ride a bike 2 sizes larger but if you want to do it properly and stay healthy and really enjoy the experience, you DO need a bike fit.

Well sure! And you'd better get the right size of golf clubs (I suppose), and good-fitting ice skates and roller blades. But perhaps @backdoor hadn't participated in any of those sports. He tried on three pairs and chose the one that fit him. (And it's possible they're correct without any modifications). My objection is that there is no reason to treat him disrespectfully because he's a newbie making a newbie mistake. Don't we like to bring new folks into the fold?

 

[François Pugh]

Tony ,

Thanks for the feedback. The interesting thing is that while I did not mean for this thread to turn into a ski-boot fitting thread, it seem from the collective experience that this is the most common challenge that many have had and it makes sense that boot fitting would be the thing most members are posting about.

I do have a few questions at the bottom though about seeing a "boot fitter".

But first, a little bit of background in my limited skiing experience - When I was younger (teens to early 20s) we would go skiing a couple times each year. Never enough to warrant purchasing gear so we always rented. My Uncle who was an avid skier always took the time to teach us how to fit the boots and if they didn't fit right, he would take the boots back to the rental guys (they all knew each other) and would get us a different size or different type of boot. So from that experience I have a vague idea of what a good fitting ski boot should feel like.

With rental boots it wasn't rocket science. It was just about knowing how the boot should fit on your foot. You needed to know how tight the liner should feel around your foot in the boot and that the liner wasn't so worn that you could feel the shell through it. Also where your big toe should be while sitting and standing and how your ankle should fit in the pocket. Finally making sure your shin/lower calf is tight but not enough to cut off the blood flow to your foot. I rented 3 times last year and not one time was I able to get a ski boot that was perfectly comfortable with a great fit. That being said, all three days that I skied last year (3 different weeks), I was able to ski without having to pay any attention to my boots/feet. There was no pain, uncomfortable hotspots nor at anytime throughout any one of those days did it ever cross my mind that I need to adjust my boots or that my feet or legs were uncomfortable.

Enter this past week in finding these Xpro 120's. In comparison to rental boots, "Euphoric" describes how good and tight these boots fit on my feet compared to any other rental boots that I have ever worn before. Before buying these boots I had tried 2 other pairs of >300$ ski boots at REI in the previous weeks and they were both meh. They were the same size boot (27.5) but they did not fit like a glove. With these 120's the toe was right up against the tip of the boot, liner was super snug around my foot in the boot with no empty space or play in the boot that I could feel and the ankle fit was good. Overall I have never dreamed a ski boot could feel this good.

All this said here are the questions I have on boot fitting -

1. As a recreational skier with some experience and as one who has done their research with fairly normal shaped feet (I've done the shell fit, boots fit as explained above, walked around in them for about 30 minutes at home and have stood in them flexed for a few minutes at a time with no issues) would it be beneficial for me at this point to drive over 90 minutes and spend $80/hr to see a boot fitter? And I am not trying to be sarcastic about this. In all seriousness if there is a feasible advantage to it I am all for it. I would just hate to drive out to see a boot fitter spend the time and money and they tell me that I am pretty close to where I need to be.

2. Would it be better for me at this point to ski in what I have now and if I start to notice some things are not right then schedule a visit to a boot fitter to see what I need to adjust?

3. Being as there are not many ski shops near me, what's the best way to find a good boot fitter? Is there a thread here on SkiTalk that lists known good boot fitters?

So far I have called 2 places. The first was a sporting good s store that admittedly stated they are not real "Boot fitters" but can help get me into a pair of boots that fits well. They don't schedule boot fittings and really don't do boot modifications …etc. The second place I called and explained that I would be willing to pay for an hour to get some feedback from him on the boots that I have and see if there would be any benefits from making adjustments such as heat molding or inserts and this is the line of questioning I got from him:
Boot fitter "Why would you buy boots without trying them on?" (assuming I bought them online)
Me "I did try them on and they fit great"
Him "How many other pairs of boots did you try?"
Me "Two other pairs of new boots"
Him " Do you know that we carry over 27 different types of boots, how would you know after trying on only 2 pairs of boots that those are the boots that fit you the best?"
Me "Um.... I ... well..."
Him "What brand of boots did you buy?"
Me "Salomon XPro 120's"
Him "Thats a brand that we sell the least of. Most people find those boots are the least comfortable of the brands I sell"
Me "Thanks for your time and feedback"

So not interested in that shop at all. Was kind of expecting more of a "Sure come on down and we will see how those boots fit compared to some others we have in the shop and we can take a look at a few things for you"

Thank you all for the feedback its good stuff and I appreciate the time this and attitude this ski community has toward new skiers

-Sean

It sounds to me like the boot-fitter, salesman and possibly shop owner was just annoyed, frustrated and angry at you (and at many other people) for deciding to buy discounted on-line boots with no service instead of rewarding him for his commitment to serving customers with good boot-fitting by buying boots from him at a price that lets him make a decent living.

That being said, his commitment may have been worn down by the number of such people apparently not appreciating his services. He should not have let his anger and frustration cloud his judgement, but pobody's nerfect.

Next time, lie! Hi, I'm a new skier and my husband/wife/boyfriend/second cousin's brother-in law/whatever gifted me these boots, and they seem to fit, but I want a professional opinion on if they do fit well or if they need some modifications. In any case, I've been told that I should have them properly aligned (you should), canting, forward lean angle, cuff alignment and all that stuff, so I need that done.

 

[newboots]

He didn't buy them online. He tried on several boots and chose this one.

 

[François Pugh]

^^That would promote the same reaction.

 

[newboots]

^^Good point. I'm still mad at the guy, though!

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

I reply to @Andy Mink …
Again here older bindings are not indemnified, however many ski them, again the know the risk and know how the check and set them. …

I know how to set them… but how do you check them without the release torque measurements?

 

[Aquila]

Well sure! And you'd better get the right size of golf clubs (I suppose), and good-fitting ice skates and roller blades. But perhaps @backdoor hadn't participated in any of those sports. He tried on three pairs and chose the one that fit him. (And it's possible they're correct without any modifications). My objection is that there is no reason to treat him disrespectfully because he's a newbie making a newbie mistake. Don't we like to bring new folks into the fold?

This reminds me I'm on my fourth pair of ice skates (first pair was super soft and I destroyed them, second and third pair were horrible fits, fourth is going well). They can be just as tricky to fit, except it's even harder to find someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to fit.

Why aren't sports more straightforward?!

 

[jt10000]

3. Being as there are not many ski shops near me, what's the best way to find a good boot fitter? Is there a thread here on SkiTalk that lists known good boot fitters?

So far I have called 2 places. The first was a sporting good s store that admittedly stated they are not real "Boot fitters" but can help get me into a pair of boots that fits well. They don't schedule boot fittings and really don't do boot modifications …etc. The second place I called and explained that I would be willing to pay for an hour to get some feedback from him on the boots that I have and see if there would be any benefits from making adjustments such as heat molding or inserts and this is the line of questioning I got from him:
Boot fitter "Why would you buy boots without trying them on?" (assuming I bought them online)
Me "I did try them on and they fit great"
Him "How many other pairs of boots did you try?"
Me "Two other pairs of new boots"
Him " Do you know that we carry over 27 different types of boots, how would you know after trying on only 2 pairs of boots that those are the boots that fit you the best?"
Me "Um.... I ... well..."
Him "What brand of boots did you buy?"
Me "Salomon XPro 120's"
Him "Thats a brand that we sell the least of. Most people find those boots are the least comfortable of the brands I sell"
Me "Thanks for your time and feedback"

So not interested in that shop at all.

I would never go back to a shop like that. Also, this is a dick (and stupid) statement to someone that generally likes their boots: "Most people find those boots are the least comfortable of the brands I sell."

I got my first boots from a well-known bootfitter in New Jersey. My feet are pretty easy. He looked at them, interviewed me, brought out two pairs, and both seemed pretty good based on what he was checking and what he asked me. Except one was rather painful around my "sixth" toes while the other felt the same except for no big pain there. I choose that pair and used them pretty happily for three seasons. I'm sure he could have punched out the pain stop on the first pair, but why when everything else on both pairs felt the same?

I just got a stiffer, much tighter boot for my fourth real season.

 

[jt10000]

Most important by far, consider that the boot fitter's attitude is likely coming from a perspective along the lines of, "I am not going to stand behind work that is built on a shaky foundation. I can stand behind my work only when I am in on the ground floor with the boot selection."

So basically you got his or her hackles up with your initial question. I'd think about a do-over of that conversation. Something that begins with "I know I made a rookie mistake and I'm wondering if you can help me out."

Life is too short to have to go in all apologetic to pay for service. If that bootfitter doesn't want to work on a "shaky" foundation (which may well be reasonable) he should just say so and refuse the business. Or take the business with some caveats about how effective/noneffective it may be. Not these games of "Why did you do that?"

 

[Philpug]

I'm sure he could have punched out the pain stop on the first pair, but why when everything else on both pairs felt the same?

I am inherently lazy. When I have a skier on the bench and both boots should work but one is better w/o pain, I am going with the path of least resistance unless there is a reason we need to do the other one ... like if is a canting issue and the one soles are contoured and cannot be canted ... or the color matches the outfit better .

 

[Philpug]

"I am not going to stand behind work that is built on a shaky foundation. I can stand behind my work only when I am in on the ground floor with the boot selection."

This happened when we were putting in our hot tub. We had a 220v outlet that we were not using and the one electrician would not use it because he didn't install it. So he wanted to come from the box which was on the far corner of the house. Our nextdoor neighbor at the time was an HVAC guy came over and helped we wired it and in 10 years, no issues.

 

[backdoor]

Well sure! And you'd better get the right size of golf clubs (I suppose), and good-fitting ice skates and roller blades. But perhaps @backdoor hadn't participated in any of those sports. He tried on three pairs and chose the one that fit him. (And it's possible they're correct without any modifications). My objection is that there is no reason to treat him disrespectfully because he's a newbie making a newbie mistake. Don't we like to bring new folks into the fold?

Not a super newbie just new to buying ski gear. And I have always been athletic and played sports. Growing up I was a runner and had a 5 min mile in high school (5:13 but whos counting) so I know about my feet and how foot wear should fit them. I played soccer my whole life indoor and out. Played golf in high school. I am a lifetime surfer and avid cyclist. So I get the whole boot thing and paying good money for the proper gear.

I think you make a good point about bringing new people in. Because unlike me there are many people who don't understand and don't have the patience and don't want to be told they have to spend 1500.00 on gear if they want to enjoy the sport. But if you are in athletic retail and want people to come back to buy stuff from your store you have to build a relationship by being straightforward and honest with them without being demeaning.

"Hey look I know you like these boots cause they match your outfit but you have a wide foot and it'll feel cramped in there and probably start bugging after a few hours of skiing. I will sell these boots to you but you need to promise me that as soon as they start bothering you that you will come back and see me and we will try and get the best price for them and put you into a better fitting pair of boots"

 

[François Pugh]

This happened when we were putting in our hot tub. We had a 220v outlet that we were not using and the one electrician would not use it because he didn't install it. So he wanted to come from the box which was on the far corner of the house. Our nextdoor neighbor at the time was an HVAC guy came over and helped we wired it and in 10 years, no issues.

So, do they have laws preventing you from doing your own wiring on your own house. Asking for a friend?

 

[Wilhelmson]

So, do they have laws preventing you from doing your own wiring on your own house. Asking for a friend?

Thats the other forum

 

[Tony S]

Life is too short to have to go in all apologetic to pay for service. If that bootfitter doesn't want to work on a "shaky" foundation (which may well be reasonable) he should just say so and refuse the business. Or take the business with some caveats about how effective/noneffective it may be. Not these games of "Why did you do that?"

I totally agree in principle. Beyond agree, even. In fact I'm usually the one pushing that perspective. But we have learned in life and recently in related threads that while in an ideal world talented boot fitting would come with talented customer relations, and that poor customer relations would be a reliable indicator of poor boot fitting, that's often not the case. (Think of chefs and the food they make.) And when you factor in the radically different perspectives held by - on the one hand - a totally rational normal person with little to no background in boot fitting and - on the other hand - someone who has been doing nothing but that all day for 40 years or whatever, you get .... well, misunderstandings.