Zipfits causing toe bang - little help please

[Hankj]

Added Gara HV liners to my Dabello Panterras 130's. I absolutely love the performance over the stock Intuition wraps. the Stock liner are soft and light and pack out easily. The Gara HV's transfer power way better, and they add some weight (much heavier than stock) that really benefit the Panterra. They are a GREAT upgrade.

Problem is that after fitting, Gara HV's had my toes closer to the front of my boots. My big toes are prominent, 1/2 size bigger than what the rest of my foot would suggest. Snd my right foot is about 1/2 size bigger than left. As such I'm familiar with dealing with toe bang, in particular with my right big toe. I've lost that toenail twice in the last four season.

The pain is of course a problem - such a weird sort of intense nerve pain. But the inability to ski once it gets started is the real problem. I don't want to be off the slopes waiting for toe nails to fall off and heal up.

The time around, it's both big toes. Both on the outside half of the nail. Inside half is fine. Right worse than left but left definitely involved.

Zero toe problems in the stock liners.

My boots are tight enough to keep foot from sliding around, and the Zipfits do a great job of holding the foot stable in the boot. Any tighter and feet tingle and lose feeling (quite high arches).

Yesterday I got both toes of the shells punched. That larger angle shaped punch head that is made to stretch the big toe corner of the boot both out and sideways. So we will see if that fixes it.

BUT HERE IS MY QUESTION FOR YOU. Can I do anything to the Zipfit Gara HV liners themselves to get my toes back a little bit more and/or to make my heels position a little father back in the shells? Is there a place to remove cork that would help? A way to heat remold them wherein the result is heels a bit farther back (and stay back)? A place to add or manipulate cork to push the foot back more? Maybe heel lifts? Add angle to boot boards? Something else?

Shell fit just under two fingers according to the shop fitter.

Thanks very much! I really want these liner to work, both because they were expensive, and because they ski really nicely.

 

[Hankj]

Just for reference a photo of my feet, both heels against the wall. There shall be no foot modeling career anytime soon. 40 years in stiff swim fins kneeboard surfing will do some ugly work

 

[Jersey Skier]

I'll be the first to say that if you go in racer style your less likely to have extra Omfit pushed down behind your heel.

 

[Hankj]

Jersey skier I think that probably makes sense, and didn't come up in my other recent thread asking about the reasons one should put a zipfit in the shell racer style. Idea being I suppose that if you go in like a normal ski boot, then your heel forcing down into the liner massages cork down farther behind your heel.

Smart. Thanks for pointing that out

 

[raytseng]

What is the footbed situation? If heel is shifting it should be job of good heel cup to keep your heel back.
If you already squished the cork down, after next ski day when the liners are all warmed, take liners out, you can attempt to massage the cork verical a bit and back to around Achilles and away from the heel.
Finally more cork or tighter buckle on instep pushes your heel back. Be sure when you're booting up you get heel back before buckling

 

[Hankj]

Ray my foot is staying put pretty good, probably better than ever in any liners. The toes are right up on the front plastic enough that sheer forces internal to my foot are doing most of the movement of the toes.

The footbeds I'm in right now are green superfeet that were cut and molded to my feet to the extent they can be at Evo.

My go-to footbeds for most of my shoes are Sole Ed Veister. With this set of Dalbello boots I can use those in the left but not the right. Too much volume, bridge of the foot strap then makes my foot go numb.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Hankj]

I'm going to hang on to that idea of maybe a little more cork towards the bottom of the tongue to push the foot back thanks

 

[Noodler]

Forget about the liners for a moment (you have received good advice already on dealing with those). Instead consider the shell itself and where the shell is actually longest internally. That would be from the most rearward point of the boot heel up to the area that is most forward in the toe box. Ideally your foot's vertical position when in the shell will align the most rearward part of your heel with the most rearward point of the boot shell (and likewise for the toes). The ugly truth is, that for many skiers, this is not actually the case. My experience is that many times the foot is sitting too high in the shell (once the liner and footbed are under the foot).

A way to figure this out is to remove the liner and the bootboard from a boot. While sitting in a chair put your bare foot into the shell and keep the boot shell tipped back a bit to be aligned with your lower leg. Move your heel up and down and feel where in the shell the curvature of the boot best matches your heel-achilles area. There will be a point where the most rearward portion of your heel is perfectly positioned into the most rearward point of the shell (and you should feel the shell hugging your heel and along your Achilles tendon).

Once you have a feel for where this is positioned (you can even mark a line on your calf right where the upper cuff ends), pull your foot out and put the bootboard back in. Repeat the test with the bootboard and footbed in the boot and see if you can get your foot fully back into the same vertical position. You may find that the thickness of the bootboard and the footbed prevent your foot from getting "low enough" in the boot shell. If this is the case, you will need to either grind the footbed thinner and/or the bootboard. That's the only way to get your foot back to the same position where it is optimally aligned with the longest internal length of the shell.

 

[Andy Mink]

Do you have a custom footbed? A well made footbed will help pull your toes back as it won't allow your foot to flatten out as much as an off the shelf footbed.

ETA: Missed the post about the Superfeet. They may be fine, maybe not, as a support for your foot. If nothing else seems to fix the issue do give a fully custom footbed a shot. Yep, money, but it can make a big difference.

 

[raytseng]

If the issue is the bootboard stack height as noodler suggests to get your heel into the pocket; and since you're using offtheshelf footbeds and happy with sole in your other shoes:
You can take a look at the sole medium foot beds, which will be thinner than the sole ed v. which is just a collab of their thick product (meant for hiking or mountaineering boots, not ski boots). That would be an easier path than grinding.

Personally, before I got custom footbeds, and wandering the path of offtheshelf, the heelcup and moldingarch on sole matched me much better, while superfeet were torture. So it is odd to me you are happy with sole in your other footwear but use superfeet in your ski boots.

Should you go sole, don't use the heatmold, just wear-mold it and it will mold within a couple days (or sessions if you want to walk around at home).

 

[Noodler]

If the issue is the bootboard stack height as noodler suggests, Since you're using offtheshelf footbeds, and happy with sole in your other shoes,
You can take a look at the sole medium foot beds, which will be thinner than the sole ed v. which is just a collab of their thick product (meant for hiking or mountaineering boots, not ski boots). That would be an easier path than grinding.

Personally, before I got custom footbeds, the heelcup and molding arch on sole matched me much better while superfeet were torture. So it is odd to me you are happy with sole in your other footwear but use superfeet in your ski boots.

Should you go sole, don't use the heatmold, just wear-mold it and it will mold within a couple days (or sessions if you want to walk around at home).

My favorite SOLE footbed is the Performance Thin with Met Support (cork). Cork is a good insulator and easily moldable and grindable. Works really well for an off-the-shelf footbed. It's a decent starting point that you can then add some posting material to and get some correction for pronation/supination (if you need it).

 

[LiquidFeet]

Ray my foot is staying put pretty good, probably better than ever in any liners. The toes are right up on the front plastic enough that sheer forces internal to my foot are doing most of the movement of the toes.

Shell fit just under two fingers according to the shop fitter.

I'm surprised the toes are that far forward in a shell that can fit two fingers behind your heels. Something two fingers thick is pushing your heels forward.

 

[Noodler]

I'm surprised the toes are that far forward in a shell that can fit two fingers behind your heels. Something two fingers thick is pushing your heels forward.

Yep, this is the great "mystery".

 

[Noodler]

This has been discussed many times in the big ZipFit thread, but it's important to understand the role of each of the bladders in a ZipFit liner. The ankle bladders are for firming up the connection from the sides of the shell (area around the shell pivot points) to your ankles. They address an ankle/heel that may be a bit skinnier than ideal for the shell. However, don't try to overfill the ankle chambers to make up for a shell that is clearly far too wide for your anatomy. The tongue bladder provides the heel hold down, and the OMFit should be focused on the area in front of the ankles and over the instep. It might not be entirely intuitive that the tongue bladder primarily handles heel hold down, but that's how it plays out.

 

[cem]

so there are a number of things that could be causing these issues, but i am going to step away form the footbed the liner and even the shell for just a second

as someone assessed your ankle joint range of motion?

"zero problems with the stock liner", is most likely as it is just thin enough around the heel pocket to let your foot move back a touch, but the thicker material of the zipfit combined with a limited ankle joint ROM would hold you forward a bit more than you should be

1 test ROM heel lift/stretch as appropriate
2 cork into the tongue of the liner
3 heat process the liner again, with a decent thick rubber toe cap on to make sure you are forced back into the heel pocket
4 add a touch more cork into tongue if needed
5 make sure you are putting the liner on and then stepping into the shell to prevent cork falling behind the heel and shunting you forward