Width of machine-groomed classic XC tracks?

[Primoz]

@jt10000 in reality you are right, but if you are good enough in classic, you stay on both foot as long as possible. It means you are doublepoling all the uphills, as doublepoling is way faster then diagonal uphills. Questions is just how steep and how long uphills are, and how strong we are

 

[crosscountry]

The length of time available to accomplish that weight shift is governed by the length of the glide phase. Skiers breaking trail have next-to-zero glide and simply won't go far enough laterally.

Interesting thought. Wouldn't that suggest almost all skier made tracks start out narrower than optimal due to the lack of glide when first cut?.

if you rub against the inside you might like them narrower - or if you rub against the outside you might like them wider.

So, if the initial cut tracks were too narrow (or too wide) subsequent skiers would rub the side of the track until it got wider (or narrower). I haven't noticed much of that effect on many of the "skier tracked" routes, even the fairly popular ones.

So that suggest to me most skiers have a set width they feel comfortable. And that width seems to be quite universal.

Granted, it may have to do with the same technique we all were taught, and adapt to for years.

 

[Tony S]

@jt10000 in reality you are right, but if you are good enough in classic, you stay on both foot as long as possible. It means you are doublepoling all the uphills, as doublepoling is way faster then diagonal uphills. Questions is just how steep and how long uphills are, and how strong we are

I understand that in the world of xc racing this is well accepted. (My kid raced at the high school level, and I follow the sport a little.) However, my guess is that this level of classic skiing is beyond the ambition and fitness levels of almost everyone in this forum, to the extent than many may be scratching their heads.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Doublepoling also works with inline skates while waiting for snow…. the questions remain the same

 

[Yo Momma]

I understand that in the world of xc racing this is well accepted. (My kid raced at the high school level, and I follow the sport a little.) However, my guess is that this level of classic skiing is beyond the ambition and fitness levels of almost everyone in this forum, to the extent than many may be scratching their heads.

I XC ski 3 x a week during the season on our local groomed trails and the incredible speed, grace and fitness of top level racers whizzing by, is simply "Art" to watch....... Beauty in Motion... like watching a bobcat run across a snow covered field... It's like they move without moving. That Zone is other worldly...... I always just stop and admire the form...many attempts to emulate their form but alas Posers like me, Unite!

 

[cantunamunch]

Doublepoling also works with inline skates while waiting for snow…. the questions remain the same

There were some 6'4" and even 6'9" guys in our inline club - I used to feel short and inadequate and not able to win any sprint let alone race because once they got their great legs going they had all the stride length in the world. Then I spent half a season working, really working on hip extension and weight transfer - I had been doing it wrong and *they* were the slow ones.

 

[crosscountry]

Just curious, is double poling uphill on classic faster than V2 on skate?

 

[Primoz]

I understand that in the world of xc racing this is well accepted. (My kid raced at the high school level, and I follow the sport a little.) However, my guess is that this level of classic skiing is beyond the ambition and fitness levels of almost everyone in this forum, to the extent than many may be scratching their heads.

I agree it's mainly in racing domain. Like I wrote in different thread, I'm pretty regular on Toblach WC tracks, and they are nice tracks, but for half of uphills, I can double pole up if I really really want to, but nowhere near that fast, as I would be going diagonal. And considering I know how hard WC tracks are, it's still beyond me, how Poltoranin won WC race on those tracks in Toblach on skate skis.


Sure in 2015 rules were slightly different, and allowed a bit more then today, and yes, exactly this race was the race that bring new rules for classic races, but still, it's simply one of most impressive things on classic races, even though it meant death of proper classic in racing.

Just curious, is double poling uphill on classic faster than V2 on skate?

No not really, not to mention it's way more physically demanding. And when it's time to switch to V2, uphills is pretty damn steep already, so you need to be pretty damn good to double pole up that kind of climb, especially if we are talking about normal, several 100m long climb, not just few meters of it.

 

[Tony Storaro]

A layman's question: I always wondered why are these tracks needed, I thought you were supposed to skate, or how is it?

 

[crosscountry]

A layman's question: I always wondered why are these tracks needed, I thought you were supposed to skate, or how is it?

You're not suppose to skate in a classic race. There're skate races, then there's classic.

 

[Tony Storaro]

You're not suppose to skate in a classic race. There're skate races, then there's classic.

Oh, it is about racing? I see, sorry...

 

[crosscountry]

And when it's time to switch to V2, uphills is pretty damn steep already, so you need to be pretty damn good to double pole up that kind of climb, especially if we are talking about normal, several 100m long climb, not just few meters of it.

So, wouldn't it be even faster (and less physically draining) if they V2 it up the hill?

(I'm ignorant of the racing rules. So I don't know how it's determined where herringbone ends and V2 starts. Or whether it's allowed to V2 up the hill)

 

[Primoz]

No skating is allowed on classic races. Otherwise yes it would be faster, but against the rules and would make you disqualified before end of first uphill

 

[jt10000]

You're not suppose to skate in a classic race. There're skate races, then there's classic.

To be pedantic, there are freestyle races and classic technique races. Skating is not allowed in classic races but classic technique is allowed in freestyle races

At high-level freestyle races, everyone skates. But at lower levels, I've seen people classic ski a freestyle race - very rare but allowed. Generally older gentlemen who like diagonal striding in marathon distances.

At some high-level classic races people only double pole (or rarely herringbone) - they don't kick and they are on skis with only glide wax. like skate skis.

This is at the end of a 70K race with a several kilometer climb at the end - the fast skiers double poled the whole thing!

(I'm ignorant of the racing rules. So I don't know how it's determined where herringbone ends and V2 starts. Or whether it's allowed to V2 up the hill)

The difference is that in a classic herringbone the ski does not glide while in skating it does. Uphill it's clear. Around corners and downhill it's not so clear - step turns, especially downhill, naturally involve skating. You can even see that in the video above.

 

[crosscountry]

The difference is that in a classic herringbone the ski does not glide while in a skating it it does. Uphill it's clear. Around corners and downhill it's not so clear - step turns downhill naturally involve skating.

First, let me say I never raced.

Second, I learned to xc ski way back. And classic was all everyone did.

But of the "uphill technique" we learned, supposedly classic uphill skills, we were taught to milk whatever little bit of glide possible. Even when out of the track in a herringbone by gliding just a tiny bit on the inside edge. Or maybe that was technically not a herringbone?

 

[jt10000]

But of the "uphill technique" we learned, supposedly classic uphill skills, we were taught to milk whatever little bit of glide possible. Even when out of the track in a herringbone by gliding just a tiny bit on the inside edge. Or maybe that was technically not a herringbone?

That's skating.

People have skated for as long as they have skied on two skis - skating around corners and gliding in herringbones as you mentioned. Those are not new - so they are "classic" in the sense they are old technique but not classic by racing rules. When the need arose to protect classic technique in races in the 1990s, rules were developed to limit skating.

 

[crosscountry]

When the need arose to protect classic technique in races in the 1990s, rules were developed to limit skating.

So, will they tighten up the rules to disallow extended double poling? (to "protect classic technique"?)

Or will xc ski racing be split into 3 technique classes? With "classic" being just diagonal striding?

Just kidding a bit. I really don't know enough about racing. But I thought that's how classic and freestyle (aka skating) was born.

 

[Primoz]

@crosscountry when it comes to racing, that "little glide you milk out" would get you disqualified. As @jt10000 wrote, it counts as skating and it's not allowed. As for dissalowing double poling all the way, they made already few changes. In last several years, there's section of track where double poling is not allowed and you need to use diagonal stride, which means you need to have kick wax on skis. Ok there were few times when guys, especially Cologna, went with skate skis as climbs where these sections were, were mild enough that he managed to go through with diagonal stride and no wax (looked pretty funny though). But in general these sections are steep and long enough, that you have to have wax.
Thing is with changes in training, and especially changes in equipment, even hardest courses are now possible to double pole and while FIS wants classic to stay (and I'm 110% with them on this!), they need to find ways how to "protect" classic on classic races. Someone might not believe, but really today's poles are completely different then what was 15 or 20 years ago, even though they were all full carbon etc. I just got new Swix poles from friend last winter to change my old classic poles, I still had from my racing day. New ones are like 500% more stiff and it's really much easier to double pole even in climbs I would never even think of double poling before. When you add this whole bunch of training in fitness, which was never the case before in xc skiing, you get people who can double pole anything.
@jt10000 that Marcialonga climb is not really that bad. It's true that it's some 5 or 6km of it on the end of 70km race, but it's not super steep. Long time ago, when I went to this marathon (once I was around place 20 and once around place 60, which was not all that bad result), I went on skate skis at that time already, as marathon itself is pretty easy. First 15km or so is going a bit up, and then it's going down the valley all the way... until last 5 or 6km, when last climb starts. So skate skis are really only option to be competitive.

 

[wooglin]

So, will they tighten up the rules to disallow extended double poling? (to "protect classic technique"?)
.

One thing they’ve done is limit the length of poles in classic to make double poling less attractive. I imagine they could continue to tweak that. Currently at 83% of your height according to google.

 

[Primoz]

@wooglin there's not really much space in that. Current rule is pretty much optimal for classic, anything shorter will have problems for technique, double poling and diagonal stride, and anything longer makes bigger plus in double pooling. And yes, it's 83%, but it's height in ski boots, and poles are measured from bottom to top of point where strap enters grip, so if I take my measurement and it should be 152.72cm for me (corrected to 153cm by FIS rule), it's not that poles are 153, but more like 154-155cm depending on grip model.