Why Cant Your Ski Boots

[Zirbl]

"Is the intended result of such an intervention a foot standing flat, or a foot tilted towards one side or the other?

Niether! Canting is done outside the boot, by either planning the shell of the boot with correction or placing a shim/wedge between the outsole and the boot clog/lower.

Which doesn't change the angle of the foot to the floor?

 

[coupdevill]

OK. I'll start over.
I am neither knock kneed or bow legged when standing normally in tennis shoes.
I have not asked my podiatrist about skiing issues but he says my feet and legs are solid but I do have somewhat limited range of motion. I'm 76.
In tennis shoes my flexed left knee moves straight forward and back. While standing with my boots flat on the floor I can rotate my hip joint to shift the knee a little to the inside and a little to the outside without discomfort or much effort. I turn easily to the right with good edging.
My right leg is different. In tennis shoes my right knee starts straight over the front of my foot like the left but as I flex the knee in a normal skiing motion it moves quickly to the inside. with my boots flat on the floor I can not rotate this knee to the outside of straight ahead without a lot of effort.
This is the leg/foot that was professionally adjusted by two different ski shops and the leg that causes 90% of my edging problems skiing.
I've had dozens of days of ski lessons and none of my instructors have ever given any specific advice or instruction regarding my left turns vs my right turns even tho I feel a significant difference in my ability to turn left.

 

[coupdevill]

Which doesn't change the angle of the foot to the floor?

Are you tring to change the angle of the foot to the floor? If so just sand/mill the zeppa/bootboard to the desired angle. With modern "Canting" we are trying to position the leg perpendicular to the ski.

 

[coupdevill]

Then I would algin the center of knee mass with the seam/mold mark on the toe lug (after doing everything else previously mentioned) and that weak side turn will be rock solid. PM me if you like i'll give you my mobile number and I can walk you through this.

 

[Zirbl]

Are you tring to change the angle of the foot to the floor? If so just sand/mill the zeppa/bootboard to the desired angle. With modern "Canting" we are trying to position the leg perpendicular to the ski.

I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just wanting to know how the foot is supposed to stand after the leg alignment has been corrected. If you're knock-kneed and the canting tips the knee out, is the result that your legs now look pretty but you're skiing around with the soles of the feet facing each other, or would that typically bring the foot from a big-toe bias to a more neutral position? (I appreciate from your previous answer that the angle of the foot might not be the intention, but I'm still interested in the result.)

 

[coupdevill]

I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just wanting to know how the foot is supposed to stand after the leg alignment has been corrected. If you're knock-kneed and the canting tips the knee out, is the result that your legs now look pretty but you're skiing around with the soles of the feet facing each other, or would that typically bring the foot from a big-toe bias to a more neutral position? (I appreciate from your previous answer that the angle of the foot might not be the intention, but I'm still interested in the result.)

 

[coupdevill]

1- " I'm just wanting to know how the foot is supposed to stand after the leg alignment has been corrected"

It should be the same, foot doesn't need to move assuming you have a full functioning ankle.

2- " If you're knock-kneed and the canting tips the knee out, is the result that your legs now look pretty but you're skiing around with the soles of the feet facing each other"

See answer #1

3- "or would that typically bring the foot from a big-toe bias to a more neutral position"

That is typically what a custom insole would do.

 

[markojp]

I've had dozens of days of ski lessons and none of my instructors have ever given any specific advice or instruction regarding my left turns vs my right turns even tho I feel a significant difference in my ability to turn left.

Unfortunately, not enough instructors have the ability to see and explore alignment related issues with their clients. That several (by your discription) have missed seeing assymetries in your snow/ski and movement patterns is a head scratcher, though.

 

[oldschoolskier]

The easiest method to determine whether or not canting is required for you, ski short stretch on flat stretch. You or someone with a keen eye looks at your tracks.

Perfectly flat, no bias to one edge or another. Don't go any further at this point, chances of canting requirement slim to none.

If there is an edge dominance now you require further investigation. Take a few pic's, repeat test elsewhere (several other locations) to eliminate site influenced edge. Pics help here. As you are trying to ID intentional edge vs un-intentional edge.

Since it is simple easy slow straight skiing it works for almost all skill/age levels.

While not perfect by any means it is a great starting reference point to have a good conversation with a Cantologist and Master boot fitter, with the pics adding great information for them.

 

[Zirbl]

It should be the same, foot doesn't need to move assuming you have a full functioning ankle.

How does the foot not move if the entire boot is canted via the sole? Say my boot sole and boot board are both set at 0 degrees. You then cant my boot sole 2 degrees to the little toe edge. The entire boot has moved out. My foot has now been tipped 2 degrees to the little toe edge, shifting the weight distribution towards the outside. For the foot's angle to be the same as it was before the canting was done, I'd have to raise the little toe side 2 degrees inside the shell. Or am I missing something?

 

[markojp]

Or am I missing something?

Yes. While not rocket science, it is a calculus of multiple physical factors including range of motion, mobility, skeletal structure and alignment, assymetries (both muscular and structural), etc... Coupdevill might be measuring one thing, but is simultaneously seeing and evaluating many data points that effect the adjustments he's making and the outcome that he's being hired for.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Yes. While not rocket science, it is a calculus of multiple physical factors including range of motion, mobility, skeletal structure and alignment, assymetries (both muscular and structural), etc... Coupdevil might be measuring one thing, but is simultaneously seeing and evaluating many data points that effect the adjustments he's making and the outcome that he's being hired for.

This....

 

[Zirbl]

Yes. While not rocket science, it is a calculus of multiple physical factors including range of motion, mobility, skeletal structure and alignment, assymetries (both muscular and structural), etc... Coupdevill might be measuring one thing, but is simultaneously seeing and evaluating many data points that effect the adjustments he's making and the outcome that he's being hired for.

And good on him, but this has little to do with the question. If I've given the impression I have grave doubts about the virtues of canting or the intricacy of what Mr. Coupdevill is doing, that was not my intention. I'm here because I'm interested in it, but remain genuinely puzzled as how you tilt a surface a foot is standing on without tilting the foot.

 

[Philpug]

I'm here because I'm interested in it, but remain genuinely puzzled as how you tilt a surface a foot is standing on without tilting the foot.

I will give it a shot... The foot is already inside the hard boot so tilting the foot cannot help here. Canting's objective is not to change the foot, but everything above the foot and to create a flat foundation and to get the knee above the foot. It is to get the center of the knee over the center of the foot by changing the angle under the boot.

So this skier the right boot is "out" 1.5* ( I just pulled a degree out of my a$$ for this example). For them to get the right ski onto edge for a left hand turn, it has to get from that 1.5* out to 0* THEN then can get the ski onto edge for the turn. By canting the shell, 1.5* under the outside of the shell on the right, that brings the knee over the center of the foot, now they are at 0* so that left turn will react as expected. For the right turn the BEFORE image , that ski would be nervous and always wanting to turn to the right, thus will even that out too.

 

[Zirbl]

and to create a flat foundation

So you are taking a foot that comes tilted, as it were, and making it flat? That is, if I stand biased to the outside of the foot, if I get in a boot on a flat, hard shop floor, a 0 degree boot sole (let's imagine it hasn't set warped) would also be flat, and I'd be weighting the outside edge of my foot like I would without a boot on. Once I get on a ski on snow, that bias levers up the ski - now the ski has tipped up to the LTE and my foot and boot sole are all tilted out with it. Canting outside high tips the foot and the boot sole back to 0 over the snow when the ski is in neutral tipping - BUT on a hard shop floor, the canted boot would be titled inwards - is that right?

 

[Philpug]

So you are taking a foot that comes tilted, as it were, and making it flat? That is, if I stand biased to the outside of the foot, if I get in a boot on a flat, hard shop floor, a 0 degree boot sole (let's imagine it hasn't set warped) would also be flat, and I'd be weighting the outside edge of my foot like I would without a boot on. Once I get on a ski on snow, that bias levers up the ski - now the ski has tipped up to the LTE and my foot and boot sole are all tilted out with it. Canting outside high tips the foot and the boot sole back to 0 over the snow when the ski is in neutral tipping - BUT on a hard shop floor, the canted boot would be titled inwards - is that right?

You were thinking too much about the foot, think about the knee, it is getting the knee neutral over the center of the boot

 

[Rod9301]

Foot Foundation of Aspen?

In the distant past I've had boots canted by Master Bootfitters with some success. When I purchased my most recent boots the boot fitter (same shop different boot fitter) said he did not see the need to cant.
During this time I purchased a set of "In Boot Wedges" from Eric Ward of Foot Foundation in Aspen. There wasn't enough room to add them to my snugly fitting ski boots but I've used them in hiking boots, golf shoes and everyday running shoes. It's now time to buy new ski boots which I could buy one size larger to give me enough room for the Footfoundation internal Cant.
Can anyone offer information and advice on the comparative advantages of adjusting the foot inside the boot and outside the boot?

Internal cant doesn't work

 

[Philpug]

Internal cant doesn't work

A full foot varus or valgus wedge can work but it is the solution to a different problem but it is very isolated situations and far from the norm.

 

[markojp]

A full foot varus or valgus wedge can work but it is the solution to a different problem but it is very isolated situations and far from the norm.

It's all a bit like explaining the difference between chess and checkers. If one party's never heard of chess, it's compatively hard to explain.

 

[Noodler]

So you are taking a foot that comes tilted, as it were, and making it flat? That is, if I stand biased to the outside of the foot, if I get in a boot on a flat, hard shop floor, a 0 degree boot sole (let's imagine it hasn't set warped) would also be flat, and I'd be weighting the outside edge of my foot like I would without a boot on. Once I get on a ski on snow, that bias levers up the ski - now the ski has tipped up to the LTE and my foot and boot sole are all tilted out with it. Canting outside high tips the foot and the boot sole back to 0 over the snow when the ski is in neutral tipping - BUT on a hard shop floor, the canted boot would be titled inwards - is that right?

I believe that canting is for alignment. The point of doing the canting is to "align" the leg over the center seam of the boot (just as Phil described previously). So just focus on the alignment part and hopefully the confusion is replaced with clarity.