Non Region Specific Ski "Season"... Addressing the New "Normal".

[crgildart]

Is it time to go with Mother Nature's changing flow and start ski season later in order to better leverage the bigger snow months of March and April? Instead of the snow making arms race to get WRODs open perhaps we should be re allocating those resources to keep demand interested later in the season when the natural snow dumps are bigger now.

I realize that many western and northeast places will keep some lifts spinning for the much lower number of people still itching to ski.. Should we be training the general public that NOW is really the BEST time to ski instead of Thanksgiving, Christmas Break, or even President's Day?

If St Pats instead of President's day was the peak of ski season and more people showed up then when the snow is actually best now resorts would capture more profits... on the idea that they don't even bother with the early November WRODs. But that would mean training the general public not to be expecting to ski in November anymore.

Even here in Kakalaki there was sufficient base to keep lifts spinning with minimal additional snow blasting another 2 weeks past two seasons.. The people just aren't trained to want that..

More focus on March/April and less focus on November/December.. That's the thought..

 

[scott43]

Yeah I think the average skier just stops the ski mindset when the sun comes out in spring. Other things to do. The more dedicated or whatever skiers will keep going. Really though, the hills want to make their money so they will stay open as long as they can early or late. It's it's below zero they're blowing snow to make base that will hopefully extend the season.

Interestingly though, this year some hills worked hard blowing snow and actually had a decent year. Other resorts with lodging and passes simply didn't bother. I think the passes plus the accommodations made the money they wanted and to hell with the skiing. Anyone else see this?

 

[dbostedo]

The problem with trying to shift the season intentionally, IMO, is that you know if it's cold enough to make snow NOW at the beginning. But you have no idea how much more cold you'll get or how long things will last at the end.

So I think the only real choice for resorts is to get open as often as you can, and worry about spring later.

I do think places that stay open late are trying to somewhat train people to remember them in the spring, so that can happen too. I.e. if a place is going to stay open late, they can't just do it for one season... it may take multiple to build up a population of folks who realize it and will come out. Snowshoe is probably a good example.

 

[raytseng]

What proposals do we have to "train" people?
I've think despite marketing efforts, the people don't come.
I think a large amount of the peak crowds, esp families with school age kids, only have particular weeks in the calendar for a winter trip regardless of conditions.

 

[crgildart]

What proposals do we have to "train" people?
I've think despite marketing efforts, the people don't come.
I think a large amount of the peak crowds, esp families with school age kids, only have particular weeks in the calendar for a winter trip regardless of conditions.

The answer would be to NOT open WRODs at all in November but that's a prisoner's dilemma scenario for sure.. And folks could legitimately claim collusion and anti-competitive practices if anyone were to try to punish resorts that open anyway.

The issue totally revolves around the market customers most desperately wanting what was not already available recently.. In October folks are tired of golf and bikes and instead tuning skis, and in February folks are tired of skiing and instead polishing up bikes and golf clubs..

It's human nature wo want what we don't have.. That's the root cause..

More indoor ski fridges might tweak things some.. same as heated driving range stacks..

 

[raisingarizona]

You're probably going to have to move Christmas to February then. I've been skiing now for so damn long it's not high on my priorities list and I'm generally done by the end of February except last year I was sort of following your suggested program and skied my most days in April during a good corn cycle. It was the first time that whole season there weren't any lift lines.

 

[slowrider]

After 50 yrs, between lines & bad weather it's a struggle. Give me April>May. No lines warm clear weather. Roll off the hill to beers & bbq on the patio at Rancho Deluxe.

 

[BLiP]

Can you really plan for much snow in March or April? Maybe in the west, but not out east. Yeah the east got a big dump of snow this weekend, but it will be 50 and raining again by mid week. I certainly wouldn’t want to plan a trip to any eastern resort in March or April. Maybe you’ll get lucky but the odds are not in your favor.

 

[dan ross]

I think @crgildart is right intellectually- the smart thing to do is adjust with the climate. However, for most of us, especially those who have been skiing for decades, there is an internal clock that tells us it’s time to wax for the season and when to wax for storage. Living in Los Angeles, I can say for certainty that as soon as it gets warm -upper 60’s and sunny, the motivation to go to Mammoth wanes with most folks even though the skiing is almost always better in March-April ( May ?,June?)
than it is in November/December. Out of sight, out of mind is how it goes for most low country urban dwellers. Regarding snow making, as a native New Englander, the attitude was lay down the base when you can. I can remember hearing snow guns on Halloween one year and that provoked an almost Pavlovian response in many of us .

 

[SSSdave]

Agree the late November early skiing of the past has now become ancient history.

As to extending the winter season later, much depends on specific resorts, elevations, exposures, weather, and regional drive to market. Skiing melt freeze cycle snow and spring corn is not something advanced skiers tend to spend full days at. A vast world of snow quality difference between late April into May skiing at Mammoth versus say Northstar. So more an advanced regional locals with season passes game of partial wait till at least noon through afternoons for snow to soften. Not something most season passers in large urban regions requiring several hours driving, are going to choose given high gasoline and lodging costs.

 

[crosscountry]

However, for most of us, especially those who have been skiing for decades, there is an internal clock that tells us it’s time to wax for the season and when to wax for storage.

I’ve been skiing for decades. But my internal clock had always been to start only AFTER New Year! Maybe even after MLK day. Though to be fair, the last 10 years, I remember many season I didn’t bother starting until about President’s Day. That, is to account for the climate change.

s for snow to soften. Not something most season passers in large urban regions requiring several hours driving, are going to choose given high gasoline and lodging costs.

I’m an urbanite who need to drive several hours to get to the mountains. I disagree with your cost analysis. Spring is my favorite time to ski. And it’s cheaper!

Before so many mountains got garbled up by Vail and Alterra, many of them would offer spring pass/ticket bargains. Lodging cost dropped drastically after Easter. Those more than offset whatever other cost you have in mind.

Because the freeze-thaw cycle, the better skiing is usually late morning or even afternoon, it’s perfectly alright to drive up at a decent hour in the morning, to ski a few hours, then drive home without spending any money on overnight lodging at all. That’s a lot of gas cost.

And if one choose to stay overnight to make a 2nd day out of it, a leisurely morning with a healthy brunch is another of my favorite part of spring skiing. With off-season lodging rate, I can pay for a lot of hefty brunch and dinners.

With no lift lines, one can get a lot of runs in within the shorter time window compare to mid-season waiting in line.

……..

The real reason people want to ski in December/January vs April/May had to do with other things to do besides skiing. In Dec/Jan/Feb, it’s cold and dark, nothing else to do. Let’s go skiing! By March/April/May, it’s sunny and warm outside, flowers are blooming, nice to bike and hike.

I have to admit, as the weather gets warmer each year, I find my ski season getting shorter. It used to be still darn cold in March, unpleasant to bike. So skiing is the natural thing to do. I can even easily rope a few casual friends to go with me. But now, it’s nice to bike and hike in March! It harder to muster up the resolve to drive hours to go skiing. Never mind finding anyone to go with.

 

[fatbob]

The Euro mass season traditionally starts around Xmas*and winds down at Easter. Without snowmaking even Xmas was hot and miss in the past.

* Yes there are glaciers and early WC races etc.

But you can't get over the fact that once clocks go forward the activity level in other sports and recreations ramp up. And that many people* have an active dislike of skiing in corn or "slush".

* OK maybe not the fruitcakes here but yer average punters.

 

[dan ross]

Interesting points @crosscountry . When I was a young mountain rat , the season could never begin early enough ,nor last long enough. The skiing before thanksgiving promise feeds a pent up demand. By the fall everyone is ready to go again, look at new equipment and a new season. There is no spring substitute for that kind of excitement as most are winding down but I agree it’s almost always better skiing than November/early December skiing. It is still odd for me to go skiing and return home to 70 degree weather in April -it’s like time traveling and honsetly, a bit disorienting .

 

[crosscountry]

There is no spring substitute for that kind of excitement as most are winding down

The spring excitement is in bike shops and boating shops! Granted, not in the mountain town, as it’s still not quite “spring” up there. But down in the flat land, April is when bike shops are hopping.

When I was a young mountain rat , the season could never begin early enough ,nor last long enough. The skiing before thanksgiving promise feeds a pent up demand.

I was never a ski nut. It never quite match up to my cycling passion. For me, and a lot of my cycling cohorts, skiing is something we do when it’s too miserable to bike! At least that‘s how it started for me. Though I learned to love spring skiing more than spring cycling. But at least I can pretend I’m “escaping” the cold March cycling. By April, it’s too darn warm and too darn sunny and pleasant to pretend any more! (Still, I would go up north in April or even May, if the weather is conducive to good corn snow)

That said, for families, school terms is fixed. There’s nothing the ski industry can do to change that. Once spring break is over, there’s zero demand for family skiing. Only nutters like us without the burden of school age kids will muster up the resolve to drag out the ski season.

I like it this way though. Selfish I know. When everyone is off the mountain, I enjoy it more. The sunshine, the soft corn, the lazy start, and driving home in daylight… I just hope there’re enough others like us to keep the mountains open late into spring and early summer! (yes, when you see cars with kayaks on top and mountain bikes on the back parked at the ski area base, one of them would be mine )

 

[Sibhusky]

This mountain stopped opening for Thanksgiving many years back. This season the snow vs. warm weather has swung all over the place. I think we've had spring skiing 3 times now. We're back to winter, but the south-facing slopes are already closed or iffy, so encouraging people to come in March wouldn't make them happier (or me, for that matter, I like the fact that people aren't here at the moment),

 

[Bad Bob]

Is there a 'Normal'? Has there ever been a long term 'normal'?
Have lived in many regions and have seen good and bad snow seasons in 6 decades. The glaciers tell us we are in a warming cycle right now, but if the all powerful switch thrower wants it to get colder again that wouldn't take too long. A really good volcano somewhere can fix that up real quick.

 

[crgildart]

Is there a 'Normal'? Has there ever been a long term 'normal'?
Have lived in many regions and have seen good and bad snow seasons in 6 decades. The glaciers tell us we are in a warming cycle right now, but if the all powerful switch thrower wants it to get colder again that wouldn't take too long. A really good volcano somewhere can fix that up real quick.

Krakatoa had influence for 2-3 years. Nothing like that is going to make a significant difference against what 8 billion people are doing 24/7 perpetually... except NUCLEAR WINTER. That's the only switch anyone/thing could flip here..

 

[crosscountry]

Here we go again…

 

[dbostedo]

Please keep this at least tangentially about skiing or the thread will be closed. We're not here to have a general climate change thread.

 

[DanoT]

A Canadian university did a study a few years back on the effects of climate change on the ski industry in Canada. Their conclusion was that in western Canada, in the future, ski resorts will open a few weeks later than normal and close a few weeks earlier due to a warming planet.

In B.C. all of the resorts in the interior already close in early to mid April for lack of skiers, not (but maybe coming soon) due to lack of snow.

There are members of the skiing public that do not like cold weather and are strictly spring skiers. The problem with catering to this clientele is the sun has to be shining and not cloudy or they won't go skiing...they are way too fickle and fussy for a resort to spend time and effort and $ wooing these fair weather skiers to a ski resort.