Rental boots feel better than my fitted boots

[giddyup9]

Before I get started: I have been to multiple bootfitters in Tahoe over the last 7 years: Olympic boot works, Start Haus, Sure foot(against my better judgement), and a few others. I have purchased 3 pairs of boots, multiple foot beds, and liners; a literal fortune on this hobby. I haven’t skied a full day in 7 years. Olympic (originally purchased my boots) and Start Haus (came in for a second opinion) were great and really spent a lot of time trying to help me get fit, but it just never changed. I currently have 26.5 Technica Mach 1 HV, with lots of punches and alterations with minimal improvement.

My main symptoms is intense pain/numbness on my 5th met from the pinky toe to just pass the center of my foot. Recently, its been all over the place, with additional ball of foot pain/cold toes which I am attributing to going off the deep end with some weird footbeds/liners. I definitely have some sensitivity even in other sports, but its manageable. Ive been the the podiatrist and had a nerve conduction study; nothing is abnormal here. I have done a lot of work on the boots, but nothing has really helped, at this point I think my current boots are stretched out and totally deformed, and i am now getting new and weird discomforts.

I was on the verge of quitting skiing this season; I was planning to just focus on some other hobbies I have, but last weekend I ended up renting a pair of boots and skied through the whole day. It really re-kindled my love for the sport. I had none of the ball of foot pain and initially had some of the 5th met pain but was able to loosen the middle buckle and got it dialed in in about two or three runs. I think the rentals were way too flexy, but given the lack of pain I skied better this past weekend than I have in years.

The main difference was a 27.5 rental vs my boots (at the bootfitter) were always fit to 26.5, no foot beds, and much less flex on the rentals of course.

I did some drawings of my feet, and both my feet are approximately the same size right around 270-275mm, and the width at the largest point is approximately 110mm. In my mind the 27.5 makes sense given my measurement at 10.5 street shoe size, but all of the bootfitters I have been to have said the length is okay.

Regarding the footbeds, i’m not sure what to think. I do think maybe footbeds are not as valuable for me. I have pretty strong arches and if anything under-pronate; I am thinking the footbeds, especially the later ones ive had, are built up too much and prevent me from actually engaging my foot.

Anyway, I plan on skiing on the same rentals this weekend and plan to go to a bootfitter monday and try and start the process all over again.

I’d like to some advice from this board on what other factors I should try to pay attention to when evaluating the “rentals”, and then when going to the bootfitter how to best communicate what I am looking for.

The two things I am concerned about is consistently being put into 26.5 boots and being pushed into another set of footbeds. Although I am not against footbeds, I just want to make sure its not done because thats "what we do" or even worse the high margins.

I am also looking for some sanity check here, I feel insane thinking the rental boots were better; has anyone else had a similar experience.

Also any recommendations for north lake tahoe boot fitters would be helpful.

 

[Neelis]

I have had similar issue with the ski boots I purchased.
Could not ski on them without getting incredible sore feet from the pinky toe to the center of the foot. Indeed, rentals did feel comfortable.
My problem: boots to narrow and to short. Even though they were fitted boots.

I went up 1 size and to a different brand for a bit widre feet and they are brilliant ever since. Apparently Salomon is my brand, ski boots and trekking shoes, they fit great.

When you ski, you put quite some pressure on your feet and then your feet need space to be able to be wider then without pressure. Fitting in the shop does not create those circumstances.

What they are selling you is not good for you, follow you gut feeling and focus on a size bigger boot.

 

[jt10000]

I know very very little about ski boot fitting, but am reminded of a statement, translated from French, in the chapter on bike fit in a classic book by Bernard Hinault and Claude Genzling: "The numbers propose, the rider disposes."

IOW use what works. At least in the short term.

Also adding a data point - OP my feet are the same length as yours, and I wore 8.5 in street shoes for years, and switched to 9 recently (or 8.5 wide when I can find them) as my forefoot got wider as I aged. 10.5 would be crazy large in street shoes. Unusable. My feet are pretty low volume, though wide up front. 10.5 is huge for feet of our length.

I suspect that in all your footwear - ski boots and your street stuff - you need much more width.

One last data point - I was given 27.5 Tecnica MV by a good bootfitter for my first purchase and that was OK for a couple years (40 days?). Then when it packed out and I wanted more performance I went smaller. Not saying you should go smaller, but that 27.5 worked for me skiing greens and easy blues for awhile. Eventually too big, but not bad for enjoyment.

 

[François Pugh]

My shoes typically are size 10, but my hunting/hiking boots are US 11.
My shorter foot is about 275 mm long and a quickly measured 120 mm at the widest part and 56 mm at the heel.
I have high arches and an extremely high instep to go along with an over-developed skiers bump that I attribute to too many years of hitting the Makawari board with roundhouse kicks, before I developed a preferrance for ball of foot kicks and heel kicks.

I'm in a 27.5 with many punches and Sidas foamed liners. Only a dozen days in the liners, but they are coming along. I can ski the whole day.

27.5 seems like it's OK for you, but the real problem is likely something else, other than length. That being said, I can see how having your boot or footbed designed too short may cause your foot to arch too much, but I'm not a boot fitter, just a fellow sufferer.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

 

[Philpug]

Sadly, many bootfitters fit to their expections and not the skiers. It sounds like @giddyup9 is happy with a recreational fit, something that is foreign to many of the shops especially the ones mentioned miss, and in complete transparency I have missed myself. Even some here trying to "fix you" without seeing your feet or having a two way conversation. While the "rental boot" is the reference and I will say that it is working, and we say facetiously say that rental boots fit the majorty of the feet equally poorly, they work for you and thats fine.

I will ask the OP, if these rental boots are working for you. what are you looking for, visiting all of these shops that your boots are not giving you? It sounds like struck oil, what are you still drilling for?

 

[cantunamunch]

I will ask the OP, if these rental boots are working for you. what are you looking for, visiting all of these shops that your boots are not giving you? It sounds like struck oil, what are you still drilling for?

If I was listening to OP, I'd think he wants a stiffer 'rental' boot with less initial met pressure:

I had none of the ball of foot pain and initially had some of the 5th met pain but was able to loosen the middle buckle and got it dialed in in about two or three runs. I think the rentals were way too flexy, but given the lack of pain I skied better this past weekend than I have in years.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Do you know what the rental was? Seems like a good starting point. Don't want a footbed, don't buy one, you can always add it later.

 

[scott43]

So I've always done bike fitting and there are all kinds of rules of thumb and even more "scientific" methods, but ultimately, I can't feel your spine pressure or hand pressure. Ultimately, you have to decide what works..sounds like looser fit trumps unbearable pain. What's wrong with that? Well, no world cup wins for you I guess.. FWIW, I don't use any kind of serious footbed..they generally cause unbearable arch pain for me. I do use a Superfeet carbon and swap between my ski boots and skates..but mostly it's for heel lift purposes. I also wedge in half an old food bed under my heel as well to increase heel lock. No bootfitter ever suggested that but it works for me.

 

[Philpug]

There is avalanche of what it right and what is correct. Just because something is correct, does not mean it is correct.

 

[James]

Before I get started: I have been to multiple bootfitters in Tahoe over the last 7 years: Olympic boot works, Start Haus, Sure foot(against my better judgement), and a few others. I have purchased 3 pairs of boots, multiple foot beds, and liners; a literal fortune on this hobby. I haven’t skied a full day in 7 years. Olympic (originally purchased my boots) and Start Haus (came in for a second opinion) were great and really spent a lot of time trying to help me get fit, but it just never changed. I currently have 26.5 Technica Mach 1 HV, with lots of punches and alterations with minimal improvement.

My main symptoms is intense pain/numbness on my 5th met from the pinky toe to just pass the center of my foot. Recently, its been all over the place, with additional ball of foot pain/cold toes which I am attributing to going off the deep end with some weird footbeds/liners. I definitely have some sensitivity even in other sports, but its manageable. Ive been the the podiatrist and had a nerve conduction study; nothing is abnormal here. I have done a lot of work on the boots, but nothing has really helped, at this point I think my current boots are stretched out and totally deformed, and i am now getting new and weird discomforts.

I was on the verge of quitting skiing this season; I was planning to just focus on some other hobbies I have, but last weekend I ended up renting a pair of boots and skied through the whole day. It really re-kindled my love for the sport. I had none of the ball of foot pain and initially had some of the 5th met pain but was able to loosen the middle buckle and got it dialed in in about two or three runs. I think the rentals were way too flexy, but given the lack of pain I skied better this past weekend than I have in years.

The main difference was a 27.5 rental vs my boots (at the bootfitter) were always fit to 26.5, no foot beds, and much less flex on the rentals of course.

I did some drawings of my feet, and both my feet are approximately the same size right around 270-275mm, and the width at the largest point is approximately 110mm. In my mind the 27.5 makes sense given my measurement at 10.5 street shoe size, but all of the bootfitters I have been to have said the length is okay.

Regarding the footbeds, i’m not sure what to think. I do think maybe footbeds are not as valuable for me. I have pretty strong arches and if anything under-pronate; I am thinking the footbeds, especially the later ones ive had, are built up too much and prevent me from actually engaging my foot.

Anyway, I plan on skiing on the same rentals this weekend and plan to go to a bootfitter monday and try and start the process all over again.

I’d like to some advice from this board on what other factors I should try to pay attention to when evaluating the “rentals”, and then when going to the bootfitter how to best communicate what I am looking for.

The two things I am concerned about is consistently being put into 26.5 boots and being pushed into another set of footbeds. Although I am not against footbeds, I just want to make sure its not done because thats "what we do" or even worse the high margins.

I am also looking for some sanity check here, I feel insane thinking the rental boots were better; has anyone else had a similar experience.

Also any recommendations for north lake tahoe boot fitters would be helpful.

Not being able to ski all day- did the fit guarantee not work at any shop? At some point, you have to throw in the towel and try something different. Was a 27, or a very different boot, ever brought up?

-What’s the shell fit space in your 26?

-What have you been told in terms of appropriate last width for you?

-Are your quads really tired too, from basic skiing?

You would benefit from this basic book. He used to be on epicski.

 

[pchewn]

You say you are at 110mm width in a 27.5cm length. Very similar to the shape of my feet. I feel your pain. The solution for me this year is the K2 BFC (Built for Comfort) 120 flex (also available 100, 90, etc flex). They are deliberately built for real men's feet -- not those girly narrow bird feet. Wide feet. As in dirigible hangers, 3-car-garage wide.

Boots that are actually shaped like my feet. A novel concept. You might want to try some on.

 

[Zirbl]

Not diagnosing anythign, just some ideas on what you could look at. Pure conjecture based on crap I've had to deal with.

Liner width/density? If your shells have been worked on and the fifth met still gives you grief, could it be the rental liner's width, or density, that's working? Or in your old, narrower liners, you're standing over the lip where the sole meets the side?

Footbeds. Is it possible that the posting in your custom footbeds is causing too much pressure to build up the outside of the foot?

 

[giddyup9]

Thank you all for the great replies; I really appreciate the feedback.

Sadly, many bootfitters fit to their expections and not the skiers. It sounds like @giddyup9 is happy with a recreational fit, something that is foreign to many of the shops especially the ones mentioned miss, and in complete transparency I have missed myself. Even some here trying to "fix you" without seeing your feet or having a two way conversation. While the "rental boot" is the reference and I will say that it is working, and we say facetiously say that rental boots fit the majorty of the feet equally poorly, they work for you and thats fine.

I will ask the OP, if these rental boots are working for you. what are you looking for, visiting all of these shops that your boots are not giving you? It sounds like struck oil, what are you still drilling for?

This is good insight. The rental what works about the rental boot is I am not in excruciating pain-- i can have the highest performance boot in the world, but if I cant ski on it for more than an hour the rental boot is much better. Regarding what I am looking for: The flex is far too low, i can literally bend the entire boot in half, and a couple other areas where i think the fit can be improved; i could definitely feel the boot length was longer than my usuals, but at this point I cant tell if thats just what I need to live with. I think my takeaway is to try and really think about what could be better about the rentals and figure out how to describe that. Is there any specifics i should be looking out for and put in my notes; i dont want to over index on this one pain point and miss the forest for the tree.

In terms of performance demands, I believe I am an advanced skier, and typically ski mogul/"off-piste" terrain; I am trying to keep improving and try to take at least one lesson per year. I think the reality check is that given my foot issues I need to be willing to give up the promise of performance for comfort.

Not being able to ski all day- did the fit guarantee not work at any shop? At some point, you have to throw in the towel and try something different. Was a 27, or a very different boot, ever brought up?

This might be my personality type, not conflict seeking, but whenever I bring it up I felt like there would always be "one more thing" for them to try on these boots. I am 100% throwing in the towel and want to start fresh. I have tried saying that I think the fit is too tight, but I keep getting pushed into a 26.5 and its really hard to argue with people that have done this for many years.

My issue with the fit process is it feels great in the shop, but i get on the slopes and do half a run and I have either complete numbness or excruciating pain. When its just complete numbness its actually okay, since I can at least ski through it.

Shell fit: The length fit is tight but works, I have complained about it touching the edges of my feet. I feel its constrained in both directions at my 5th/6th met and also at my big toe. The issue is when then trying it on in the shop everything is fine.

Width: I have gotten some head turns with the width of my feet. I think the peculiarity is that it is wide for a very long segment down my foot.

Quads: I almost never feel strain in my quads. In really crappy snow occasionally.

Thanks for the book rec. i'll look into it.

 

[dan ross]

This might be my personality type, not conflict seeking, but whenever I bring it up I felt like there would always be "one more thing" for them to try on these boots. I am 100% throwing in the towel and want to start fresh. I have tried saying that I think the fit is too tight, but I keep getting pushed into a 26.5 and its really hard to argue with people that have done this for many years.

Remember, you and the boot fitter are having a conversation. Their experience and your feet have to find the place of agreement.. If you have to argue, it’s time to move on, or look at a different boot type . Make sure you aren’t trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

 

[Jim Kenney]

Do any ski shops offer "rent to buy" boots off the shelf?

 

[Pequenita]

Shell fit: The length fit is tight but works, I have complained about it touching the edges of my feet. I feel its constrained in both directions at my 5th/6th met and also at my big toe.

fwiw, when the edges of my feet touch the edges of the shell during a shell fit (which is what I think I'm reading), it feels like my foot is folded up like an inverted taco when it's in the liner and is not comfortable at all. Others may feel this is the "right" fit, but for me, I can't even imagine skiing in the boot for enough time for it to pack out so that my foot can sit flat.

 

[In2h2o]

You would benefit from this basic book. He used to be on epicski.

Where has this book been hiding?

 

[James]

Do any ski shops offer "rent to buy" boots off the shelf?

Maybe Footloose in Mammoth?
They used to demo boots.

 

[Neelis]

What I just remembered from my boot fitter: the shoe is kept in place around your ankle area, you toes are allowed to be 'free'.

In a way that makes sense, the 90 degree construction of the ankle is what keeps things in place and you put most of your pressure on your shins.

Good luck with your new vision on your search for your ultimate skiboot!

 

[Neelis]

fwiw, when the edges of my feet touch the edges of the shell during a shell fit (which is what I think I'm reading), it feels like my foot is folded up like an inverted taco when it's in the liner and is not comfortable at all. Others may feel this is the "right" fit, but for me, I can't even imagine skiing in the boot for enough time for it to pack out so that my foot can sit flat.

I had this same feeling with my previous shoes.