New (different) ankle question

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by tch, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. tch

    tch What do I know; I'm just some guy on the internet. Skier

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    Following up on Markojp's ankle post, I have another question. How much should I -- or should I -- be thinking/doing sideways ankle flexing? Maybe my boots aren't fit well enough, but I can "drop" or angle the inside of my ankle when turning if think about it. This radically increases the edge angles I can achieve with my leg/knee/hip. The move is similar to sitting with feet flat on floor and then tipping the foot/ankle inwards to get the inside of foot on edge.

    Is this good? Bad? Only allowable b/c I have a loose fit in boot? I've never heard anyone address this specific element.
     
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  2. BGreen

    BGreen Getting on the lift Skier

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    It depends who you ask. I think ankle movement is good as long as the boots don't feel sloppy. I would say if you are rolling your ankles without a response from the ski, that's too much movement. If you can't roll your ankles around in the boot a little, that's too immobilized. In reality you need a bit of room for the ankle bones to move and a little room below your arch to articulate that. If you can't move your arch, the space around your ankles will feel sloppy.
     
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  3. fullStack

    fullStack Professional driver. Closed course. Skier

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    :popcorn:
     
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  4. Rod9301

    Rod9301 Booting up Skier

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    You should roll your inside ankle to the little toe edge. This, with flexing the inside leg , will produce much higher edge angles.

    Do not roll the outside ankle. This will produce very small improvements in edging.

    But you want some movement in your ankles laterally.

    Which is why most shirts are going away from foamed liners, which don't allow enough ankle movement.
     
  5. Fuller

    Fuller T shirts & flip flops... Skier

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    What about the possibility of too much lateral ankle movement? I was attempting to learn to ski one footed - which means that you have to learn to traverse exclusively on your little toe edge. Seems like my ankle would roll to the inside and I would turn downhill instead of continuing the traverse. Boots too loose or just weak ankles?
     
  6. BGreen

    BGreen Getting on the lift Skier

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    This needs to be highlighted and repeated. Rolling the outside ankle can produce a small amount of extra edge, but more likely to produce hip rotation. If you need clarification, stand in front of a mirror, roll one foot on to the pinky toe edge, then roll the other foot on the big toe edge and watch your hips twist toward the pinky toe edge.
     
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  7. BGreen

    BGreen Getting on the lift Skier

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    Boots too loose or alignment off.
     
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  8. Jamt

    Jamt Booting up Skier

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    IMO also the outside ankle will roll a bit, but the important part is that the movement que is not to roll the ankle. The "movement" que is that much of the under foot pressure should be directed towards the first metatarsel during the early turn phase.
    In order to pressure the first metatarsel the foot needs some movement space, if e.g the navicular bone touches the boot this may not be possible and the mechanics are compromised. This can also happen if the insoles are posted too much under the arch.
     
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  9. Kneale Brownson

    Kneale Brownson Getting off the lift Instructor

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    See:
     
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  10. fullStack

    fullStack Professional driver. Closed course. Skier

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    I thought this thread was going to have a lot more traction by now... Too bad because I was looking forward to learning something.

    For me, when I roll an ankle, my boot moves laterally with it right away (with maybe a tiny bit of play, but no slop). Part of that is because of the interface of the rest of my foot and lower leg with the boot. I don't feel my ankle bone moving around at all in relation to the ankle pocket, etc.

    Not sure if that's what you meant or not....now I'm questioning if the OP has more to do with fit or technique.
     
  11. Mendieta

    Mendieta Master of Snowplow Moderator

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    I thought the question was primarily about fit. Even though he didn't say it explicitly, it seemed to me that @tch implied that he has enough google room inside the boot to be able to angle his body significantly more than the skis. So he was wondering whether that was a bad fit. Did I get that right?

    If I did, I thought @BGreen gave an interesting answer:

    I am curious what some of our boot experts would say (@bud heishman , @Tricia , @Philpug ). I am also looking forward to understading better (beyond the fact that you want a snug fit to be able to drive the ski). Things like the subtlelties @BGreen was mentioning.
     
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  12. L&AirC

    L&AirC PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach Skier

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    The video Kneale posted shows how much the outside ski's ankle wants to travel. If you stand up and roll onto your outside and inside edges as you would in making a turn, your femur in your hips rotate and your ankles will move in the direction of the turn. Can't have one without the other. You might want your focus to be the inside edge, but the outside ski's ankle is going to roll at least as much as the inside, or you won't have equal edge angles.

    If there is movement allowed inside the boot, there will be at a minimum a delay in transferring pressure to the ski. I don't think the fit should be crazy tight, but snug. You want to be able to move things but you should have to force it. If it moves without force, you aren't delivering pressure to the ski and you don't have a neutral ankle.
     
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  13. Jamt

    Jamt Booting up Skier

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    If you are edgelocked in a 3G race turn you want the forces to be aligned with the joints and don't allow big lateral knee and subtalar movements. This means a snug and aligned fit. If you are playing around in the glades you probably want some more versatility and comfort.
    I use the same boots for everything except touring, i just adjust the buckles and booster strap.

    Edit, just to be clear, even when the fit is snug you should be able to tip the foot inside the boot. It should not be locked in place. I have stiff boots and intuition foam liner and I can still tip my feet enough. I did have to punch around the navicular bone and outside ankle bone though.
     
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  14. tch

    tch What do I know; I'm just some guy on the internet. Skier

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    FullStack has the question. It's primarily a question of technique. I don't really feel any slop; the entire boot moves with my ankle articulation. I feel the lower calf hit the very top of my boot as the leg angles in relation to the opening, but the ankle doesn't move within boot.
     
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  15. Kneale Brownson

    Kneale Brownson Getting off the lift Instructor

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    When I manipulate my feet inside the boots, I can feel changes in the relationship of the bottoms of the feet and the footbed. If I raise the little toe side of the foot, I decrease pressure on that side of the sole and increase pressure on the arch (big toe side).
     
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  16. PTskier

    PTskier Putting on skis Skier

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    We want the outside leg and ankle straight. Most of our weight plus centrifugal force is on that leg, and we need it straight to handle the forces. We invert the inside ankle (roll the ankle outward) which gives an action which impels the body to the inside and creates the angles with the snow. We do not want to try to bend the knee sideways--it isn't made to bend far that way, and we need any flexibility there to absorb side shocks. We do not want to dump the hip down to the snow. Some who want even more ankle side flexibility get the boot side by the medial malleous (bone on the outside of the ankle) blown out for more room.
     
  17. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

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    ... straight, or 'long' in the frontal plane while maintaining cuff contact? I think 'straight' can easily be misinterpreted and read as 'braced'. Even the outside knee will continue to be bent to different degrees through the arc in the sagital plane to manage pressure and maintain ski/snow contact as the terrain moves under our feet. I'm pretty sure we're on the same page here, PT. Just clarifying language and intent. The attached vid should illustrate well what I think we're both talking about. Everyone else, sorry for the momentary thread drift.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017 at 10:09 PM
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  18. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

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    ... and this one.



    (Interesting how different this is than current tech skiing trends, but that's another thread. ogsmile )
     
  19. oldschoolskier

    oldschoolskier Getting off the lift Skier

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    A few years back I switched from my old (very old) Rossi's to new Lange's. About a 150+ flex to a 130 flex. The back and forth flex was softer but more predictable. The side to side was considerably stiffer so much so that it was noticeable (maybe better discribed as none)

    I agree with Jamt and Kneale that there is a slight bit of movement inside the boot to initiate wt transfer, however none should occur outside the boot.

    As with forth to aft, the side to side is a wt transfer. The primary difference is in skiing vs walking we need the larger less limited forward aft movements for power and control. The side to side on the other hand is the initiator because of the forces involved (and those not needed in walking) we need the power assist of limited (none) movement so that initiated side to side motion the of body applied through the lower leg/ski boot can apply the force.

    We don't need all these extra supports for run or walking, we do skiing as we weren't designed for skiing, so we have designed equipment to assist in our physical short comings. We adapt via tools.

    In this case IMHO there is very little difference between beginner and expert. Both need stiff side to side so that edges engage. I feeling is that freestyle skiing may require some side to side flex to allow edge disengagement. But then again this is application specific.

    BTW this could be an endless post with the concepts involved, so please appreciate the shortness, lack of detail and hopefully clear simplicity.
     
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  20. Kneale Brownson

    Kneale Brownson Getting off the lift Instructor

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    If I "hold my ankle straight", I stiffen that leg, reducing my capacity to flex or extend.
     
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