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MA of Powder Skiing

karlo

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As a Level I instructor, I am working on my MA skills. Here is a video of someone skiing in powder and I would appreciate comments about my MA and your own MA observations.


I skip the first turn entirely, as it is the first turn, and focus on the second and third turns, the second turn being the one in which the skier is passing the camera. To me, it seems that balance and stance are pretty good. The upper torso and the lower leg are pretty much parallel and the skier is over his skis.

Looking at ski and snow interaction, I think tipping and edging is happening after the fall line. Or, at the least, the highest pressure is after the apex of the turn, after the fall line. So, the first part of the turn is more rotary; the last part of the turn is more edging. If the skier wishes to edge earlier in the turn, he would benefit from more angulation at the top of the turn, to project the upper body down the hill. In order to do that, the skier ought not allow the poling arm move back so much after the pole plant. Keeping the arm up and forward, making the pole plant more a flick of the wrist, would facilitate projection of the upper body downward and, hence, the ability to get on an early edge.

The skier is releasing the turn by flexing the outside leg which, in the context of powder skiing, is a very good thing since a rising-unweight would actually push the skis down into the powder and make a rotational turn initiation more difficult, because the powder will resist the skis' rotation and because it would also be biomechanically more difficult to rotate, when extended, without also rotating the upper body.

So, if it is the skier's desire to charge down faster, or ski steeper terrain in these conditions, work on the poling and work on the angulation to project the upper body down. On steeper terrain, in particular, the current turn will result in a long drop down the fall line before the turn finish, resulting in much energy needed to control speed at the end of the turn and earlier fatigue. Perhaps use railroad track drilling on groomed runs to work on the poling and the early angulation and ski-tipping. Making turns in tighter trees, really tight, early tipping would also result in greater nimbleness and the ability to make shorter turns.

Though the MA I write is not exclusive to powder skiing, relevancy to powder skiing is appreciated.
 
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PTskier

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His hips are behind his heels all the time. At 9 seconds it looks like he's sitting in a chair. No counter. No angulation. The edging of the skis is from inclination--leaning toward the hill shown at the end of :09. As you describe, too much throwing them sideways at the start of the turn, but maybe this is the only speed control he knows. The pole plant is too far forward, not straight down the hill from his heel. The reach forward removes any counter & angulation he develops and flattens his skis early.
 
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karlo

karlo

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pole plant is too far forward

Oh, right. Where the pole is planted is paramount to projecting upper body forward, not so much the arm going back, then forth.
 

PTskier

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The pole plant that reaches forward pulls the shoulder forward and removes the counter. If upper & lower body separation (counter) is good (and it is), when should it be released? I think immediately after the new edges are engaged...not exact in powder, but when the skis are begun to be rolled to their other sides/edges/whatever you want to call it. The way-forward pole plant reach takes away the counter often resulting in the skis flattening and the tails sliding around & down the hill just before you want the skis to go around the other way. Again, things are a bit different in powder, but you don't want the skis flattened until you choose to do so, and not just because you're reaching for the plant. Projecting the body forward to get forward on the skis is the slow, hard way to get recentered. Instead, get the skis back & under you by either dorsiflexing (closing the ankle) or by pulling the feet back. Which method is used depends on how much the skier needs to move and how quickly they need to move, partly depending on how steep the hill is, partly depending on how far back the skier's body is, partly depending on how tight the next turn needs to be.

The skier in the video will also do better with better foot discipline. Keep the feet close (not locked together), close both side by side and front to back. He'll have a better platform to ski on in that deep snow. Weight mostly on one ski or one ski way forward results in the skis reacting differently in the snow---one goes up & out while the other may go down & diverge.
 

Josh Matta

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use your damn poles straps and your upper body will quiet down.

also you shoulders are facing down the hill but your pelvis is not. IE you are using spinal angulation and twisting to achieve rotary and tipping. Both of those movements should come almost entirely from the femur in the pelvis joint.
 
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karlo

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shoulders are facing down the hill but your pelvis is not

What are you looking at, to immediately discern that? Thanks.

BTW, I wasn't using straps either. I avoid doing that in the trees.
 

Josh Matta

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yeha not using straps screws up your skiing both from a objective manner, but also a subjective manner. Either take your chances or get releasable straps.

https://www.salomon.com/us/product/arctic-s3-xl.html?article=399386

you skiing will change for the better with straps, especially off piste. I skied for years in much tighter tree with out ever having an issue, I doubt i was anymore careful.

As for the shoulder/pelvis relationship the turn starts with the entire upper body twisting in the direction of the turn, and then you counter you shoulders by pointing them down the hill using your spine to accomplish it. Instead try twisting your hips against the turn, while your legs steer though the turn.
 
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Erik Timmerman

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As for the shoulder/pelvis relationship the turn starts with the entire upper body twisting in the direction of the turn, and then you counter you shoulders by pointing them down the hill using your spine to accomplish it.

You can see this pretty clearly in the part where the lower body is obscured by the powder spray.
 

John O

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yeha not using straps screws up your skiing both from a objective manner, but also a subjective manner. Either take your chances or get releasable straps.

https://www.salomon.com/us/product/arctic-s3-xl.html?article=399386

you skiing will change for the better with straps, especially off piste. I skied for years in much tighter tree with out ever having an issue, I doubt i was anymore careful.

Can you explain exactly how not using straps will screw up your skiing, and clarify both the objective and subjective ways? I can't for the life of me see how it would matter.
 
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karlo

karlo

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Can you explain exactly how not using straps will screw up your skiing, and clarify both the objective and subjective ways?

I'll give this a try, on the subjective part. It's like skiing steeps, if not accustomed. The fear of losing the poles (falling in steeps) promulgates defensive skiing. Just joking. :)
 

Josh Matta

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Can you explain exactly how not using straps will screw up your skiing, and clarify both the objective and subjective ways? I can't for the life of me see how it would matter.

With out a strap on your pole touch will force your entire arm instead of just the wrist. The whole arms moving can cause the upper body to move the arm. Also blocking pole plants are much harder to do and rely on grip strength with out the strap.
 
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karlo

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As for the shoulder/pelvis relationship

I hear you, and I understand what it means conceptually. But, when I look at the video, I don't see how you see that. Are you looking at turn 2 or turn 3, as defined in OP? At what part of the turn are you looking. And, what are the visual cues? Maybe point out the time-mark in the video where you see it? Thanks.

I now wish I also had a video of him on a groomer. But, we were in powder all day. :(:roflmao:
 

Josh Matta

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I am looking at everything prior to 11 seconds. I am watching the video and starting it and stopping it, but it was most obvious just prior to 11 seconds but happened in every turn.
 

PTskier

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At about 8 seconds look how his wimpy pole grip is flinging his pole forward. Bad dog; no biscuit. A medium-firm pole grip, and aimed down the hill from his feet, not ahead of him, would tend to cause his whole body to stay in form while it brings his body forward. The forward fling of the pole just gets him out of shape.

He is sitting back either defensively...natural, instinctive, and wrong...or due to some misguided belief that his ski tips need to be above the snow surface. Wrong! His skis will take care of themselves if he just balances on their center. When he is that far back there is little that he can do except throw his skis in a new direction. Hard work, inefficient, slow, and tiring. If he was up, centered over them, balanced in the centers, and just rolling them from side to side, he'd be skiing smoothly.
 
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karlo

karlo

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Hard work, inefficient, slow, and tiring

This guy is really, really strong. In a previous run, he lost a ski, literally. The powder was so light, the brakes didn't hold and it went straight down into a gulley, about 150-200 m vertical. He skied down, through the powder and tighter trees, on one ski. I mean really skied. On the return up, I thought I saw turns made by a snowboarder, even between two trees about 3 feet apart, and wondered if others were near us, as I recalled fresh untracked powder. Then, I was reminded that he went down on one ski and that those were his tracks. Plus, he skinned the uphills as fast as the guide did, right on the guide's tail, all day. I was amazed. I know what you mean though. I would not be able to endure the day if I were as far back. Ahh, to be young again. :)

Oh, and he is really big too. If he were a Viking, you would not want to meet his axe, even if he were on his heels.
 
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