Learning vs Performing

[skibob]

Don't do something until you get it right, do it until you till you can't get it wrong. At that point learning has transitioned to performing.

I appreciate what you are saying here. But I want to play with that a little.

For my own personal learning, I find it valuable to play with something until I break it. Find the limits of "good" "bad" whatever you want to call it. In skiing terms I often take some little thing and keep pushing it, little by little, until it "breaks". For example, something simple like getting my weight forward. At first, it makes the shovel very responsive and the ski quicker. A little more forward, more of the same. More and more, until I find that the shovel is getting squirrelly. The tail wants to break a little.

And I'll do that over and over. And I'll do it on different skis and in different conditions and at different speeds, in different turn sizes. All of which matter in the "forward" equation. You develop a sixth sense of what little balance adjustments do for you. You learn to use them and not go too far.

Balance for me is a particular challenge due to a variety of reasons. So this is one I play with constantly. But there are a million little things you can seize on in skiing and play with finding the limits.

Outside of skiing, when we learned to drive, we all learned about cornering forces. Having a language for these things helps our mind develop an appreciation for nuance. I was fortunate to race go karts (real go karts, not toys) before I ever drove on streets in cars. So I learned about different rubber compounds, track width, wheelbase, line, and a million other little things that matter when you are trying to go around corners as fast as possible.

Anyway, this is how I learn. What I find I get out of lessons is new movements, new concepts, nuances to play with. To break. To fix. To explore the limits of.

 

[T-Square]

You are essentially doing the same thing. You are working the movement until you are familiar with all aspects of it and making it your own. First you get the movement 'right.' Then you explore the outer limits of the movements. This way you imprint it within your 'muscle memory.' Once you have it there, you own the movement and can call on it without thinking about it.

I always try to boil things down to succinct statements. That makes it easier for my students to remember, which is what teaching is all about.

 

[Loki1]

I understand that most people wold think that the stabilization period would be the most valuable. I would say however the next phase, actulization, is the most important to me. There have been quite a few studies lately that show repetitive movements over consistant terrain offer very little in learning once the desired movement is repeated. What really ingrains the movement is variety. I think too many people rely on repetition and don't explore the limits and constraits of a movement, which is where the true learning takes place. We need to explore our own personal limitations in each movement to understand the advantages and disadvantages of all movements in our skiing(sport).We are all different with differnet constraints and abilities. Our teacher/mentors/coaches can show us a path but we must travel that path to find our own realities(movements) and how they effect us. Those that teach technique, teach the past. Those that challenge skills teach the future.

 

[François Pugh]

I just reviewed the first post. Like most things of value, it's better the second time.
Here analogy is better than allegory. I think one key ingredient for subconsciously "deciding" not to reject is to have some idea, usually along with an analogy from your past experience of how the move is supposed to work and have you experience it working in the manner you have been led to expect. (I have an example, but don't want to ruin the allegory with an analogy in this case.)

 

[GettingThere]

@john petersen if this genuinely interests you, read "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle. I think that stabilization step is something we don't give enough time for.

agree - good book

 

[john petersen]

I understand that most people wold think that the stabilization period would be the most valuable. I would say however the next phase, actulization, is the most important to me. There have been quite a few studies lately that show repetitive movements over consistant terrain offer very little in learning once the desired movement is repeated. What really ingrains the movement is variety. I think too many people rely on repetition and don't explore the limits and constraits of a movement, which is where the true learning takes place. We need to explore our own personal limitations in each movement to understand the advantages and disadvantages of all movements in our skiing(sport).We are all different with differnet constraints and abilities. Our teacher/mentors/coaches can show us a path but we must travel that path to find our own realities(movements) and how they effect us. Those that teach technique, teach the past. Those that challenge skills teach the future.

I very much like what you say here, Loki1......

I would imagine that we subconsciously compare and contrast each and every step continually, but in smaller and smaller amounts until in the actualization phase our focus is realized and we dont have to think much about it consciously at all. This is a fluid phase, though in my opinion because every turn is a little different on any given day much less on varied terrain at different times of the season. Its like the whack a mole game.....visit a movement pattern on one afternoon and discover another movement pattern you thought you owned which seems to go out of focus a day or two later....upon visiting that second pattern, a third emerges and so on....

I have boiled down the shot sequence in target sports to 6 simple steps ( a la Henry Ford ) and have witnessed in my own shooting as well as those I instruct that a focus is just that....and may need to be changed from target to target and certainly day to day. we have to be adaptable for our situations. (yet stay focused on a task, for example)

I ask those marksman at the range to pick a focus that BEST helps their shooting "right now"....sometimes, just like us with skiing, we need more guidance to get us on the right track. (sometimes we dont.....but it sure helps to have a knowledgeable coach around to help us discover our own solutions, aint it?)

If in a clinic or lesson your coach gave you 3 options to choose from (based on very recent assessment) and asked you to pick one that would BEST help your skiing "today" and guided you to discover the answer, chances are you might take ownership of the issue sooner.
then the path past ownership to actualization can be based to a much larger percentage on your own reality. (deeper ownership)

My favorite thing in your quote, Loki, is "Those that teach technique, teach the past. those that challenge skills teach the future"

My favorite quote recently is "life is a skill blend"......So, how about this one:

"those that challenge skills through exploring efficient and varied technique on appropriate terrain and conditions will give their students the tools they need to adapt and respond comfortably now and in the future".....



JP

 

[McEl]

Razie’s link in Post #4:

http://nwresearch.wikispaces.com/fi...es.pdf/246502619/Coffield learning styles.pdf

Post-16 learning.

That 182 page study (2004) is a cure for insomnia, certainly, but just as certainly it may be a wake-up call to anyone is this business. I started reading the study looking for insight on the teaching of children. I now see its relevance to the teaching of adults, in our context – adult ski students and new instructors and coaches. It seems that the resort-focused ski instruction establishment (e.g., PSIA, CSIA) and the race-focused coaching establishment (USSA, CSCF) need to digest this and reflect it in their respective curricula for their entry level instructors and coaches, and for that matter, for their mid- and upper-level instructors/coaches.

Are they doing that?

What is one to do when trying to train new instructors and new coaches, in light of the suspect evidence "supporting" a learning style/preference mode of instructing and training?

At least one organization is taking this cautionary perspective seriously. There is useful discussion in this link:

https://cft.vanderbilt.edu/guides-sub-pages/learning-styles-preferences/

Some of this may affect how we train instructors and coaches, as one group, and how we teach adult students, as another group.

Ideas? Thoughts?

McEl

 

[DavidSkis]

At least one organization is taking this cautionary perspective seriously. There is useful discussion in this link:

https://cft.vanderbilt.edu/guides-sub-pages/learning-styles-preferences/

Some of this may affect how we train instructors and coaches, as one group, and how we teach adult students, as another group.

Ideas? Thoughts?

When I did my masters of education, it was interesting to see the research that showed learning styles aren't really a useful tool. Unfortunately they're good "folksy" perspectives that present an easy solution to a difficult problem - that of "reaching" diverse learners.

Nobody learns to ski well by just reading/hearing an explanation, and nobody learns to ski at a high level just watching a great skier. However, both tactics can form part of an effective training program.

I rationalize the use of learning styles in ski/snowboarding/skate schools as a way to introduce new instructors to the idea that effective training integrates visuals, explanations, concepts, sensation, and practice attempts.

 

[François Pugh]

I worry that some are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, just like others were reading too much into the theory. Sure, we all have all styles. Sure, we can get better at one style or the other by working on it. We still differ in which style helps us learn the most.

 

[L&AirC]

I third the recommendation on The Talent Code. Another one is The Power of Habit. It isn't as focused on reforming but compliments what Daniel Coyle wrote. A little more off topic but also helps to bring an understanding to learning and performing is A Mind For Numbers. The title is misleading as you will not know math any better than before you pick the book up. You will however learn how to learn whatever it is you want to learn.

One of my favorite things to do is have people do the "Cross your arms in front of your chest" thing. Everyone has a set way. Then tell them no matter whic arm you have on top, do it the opposite way. Everyone stumbles and it takes 100% of there concentration to do what they just did subconsciencely. I then spend the next minute or two braking the movements of the new method into little chunk until they can do it either way; left arm in top or right arm on top.

One will still feel more natural and preferred, but no longer require all your brain power to do. The point is to show that close to anything can be learned if you brake it down into chunks and as you practice more and more, you'll see the improvements.

Then of course is Angela Duckworth's Grit; The Power of Passion and Perserverance.

 

[john petersen]

wow, some great additions to this post....thanks for the references..there are several books and topics of interest....

and, curse ya, L&AirC, it took me longer than I like to get my arms to cross the "other way"....until I figured it out.....conscious got in the way again!



JP

 

[karlo]

what teaching/coaching process worked best with your learning style, preference or mindset. What approach to the lesson/clinic resonated with you and stuck with you the most?

I am a watcher and feeler. As for the latter, I do not mean kinesthetic, I mean the emotion that I derive from skiing.

In one of the two most impactful experiences, the coach suggested "be playful". Then, I watched. I followed as the coach skied through moguls playfully, with fluidity and rhythm. It changed my mindset from viewing the moguls as an obstacle course to viewing it as playground.

In the second experience, the coach described the transition as the "moment of bliss", when all is quiet and peaceful. He happened to hit on something I had been feeling anyway, but only for a certain type of turn - a float and drift, followed by a submarine commander's "dive, dive, dive!" Once my coach had put it to words, I began to more fully understand what I had been enjoying. Then, I watched. I viewed every one of his transitions as that moment of bliss, in many types of turns, which opened my eyes to possibilities. It was huge. It changed my mindset from thinking of turns as a way of slowing down and avoiding calamity, to viewing them as the means to get to that next blissful moment, which requires making a good turn, which of course begets another good turn.

Observations: I am a watcher. But, the coaches associated what I was watching to what to feel, emotionally. I only spent one day with each coach. Changing my mindset made it possible for me to make breakthroughs on my own. Both coaches are not PSIA/CSIA instructors, at least not at the time. Both were former pro skiers, but not racers. I am guessing they were imparting what they feel. Also, I think this process or method may only work for an advanced skier, one who has all the pieces and simply needs to find a way to put it all together in a more (holistic?) way.

Oh, there is a third impactful experience, or as Yoda says, "There is another." Michaela Shiffrin of course. Watching videos of her.

Acknowledgements:

Crystal Rose Lee, former pro skier, currently instructor at WB.

Dan Egan, former pro skier, coaching clinics at Killington, Big Sky, and across the pond somewhere.

All those who create and post (or permit posting) videos of Mikaela; and, of course, Mikaela herself.

 

[Steve]

I've always felt that "learning styles" are more "knowledge acquisition styles." I am definitely a cognitive learner but it never made me a great skier as much as I understood the mechanics. I became what I am as a skier by feeling what things done well feel like. I got to that point through a combination of coaching, reading, drills, videos, etc.

I believe we all learn by doing. We are all kinesthetic learners. We need to experience what it feels like, then try to replicate that feeling.

The blend of information presentation that we use -- to acquire the knowledge - to get ourselves to do something; is different for all of us.

 

[L&AirC]

I've always felt that "learning styles" are more "knowledge acquisition styles." I am definitely a cognitive learner but it never made me a great skier as much as I understood the mechanics. I became what I am as a skier by feeling what things done well feel like. I got to that point through a combination of coaching, reading, drills, videos, etc.

I believe we all learn by doing. We are all kinesthetic learners. We need to experience what it feels like, then try to replicate that feeling.

The blend of information presentation that we use -- to acquire the knowledge - to get ourselves to do something; is different for all of us.

I think "what" we are trying to learn plays a key role on how we prefer to learn. You're not going to learn to dance by reading a book or how to play the violin by watching someone else do it. You'll eventually have to get on the dance floor or pick up the violin. I can read directions and build something, or watch a youtube video and fix my washer.

I also think there is a difference between learning how to do something and learning how to do it better. The variables involved in this are can be boggling.

 

[john petersen]

I have begun reading the Talent Code (thanks, Bgreen) ...loving it.....I am also a big soccer fan and BU19 coach....deeper learning has been a focus this year as I am blessed with a very talented, gifted, motivated and skilled bunch of players (this combination/team dynamic does not happen very often). I can just about throw anything at them and they will work hard and deliver it. I am even able to work on fakes and moves because their level of play is so unusually high this season...

JP

 

[Doby Man]

Speaking to habit, it is my experience as well that learning styles are more determined by the learning modalities that are and have been available to us individually rather than a personally, uniquely, genetically determined path of learning and that “learning styles” are really just “learning preferences” established on accessibility based habit. This is what creates a learning habit and therefore learning strengths. The power of nurture over nature comes to mind as we nurture our learning regardless of our “nature”. If one believes they are a visual learner but don’t get to watch much, they still maintain a considerable ability to learn to ski. If one believes they are a tactile learner, they can still learn considerably from emulation.

I believe that the most effective learners are those who take the best advantage through adaptation of the organic learning opportunities that present themselves to us in our daily lives. For example, what type of learning program that may be best for us may depend more on what is available in our immediate environment and other external factors such as scheduling, commute, what and who is around us rather than what our genetic based learning strengths are. This “adaptation” is a core benefit of learning. Learning allows us to adapt as much as adaptation allows us to learn. Adapting to the “blend” of modalities that are supported by our environmental surroundings. This philosophy of adaptation regarding learning puts the power of making learning happen back into our own hands rather than leaving us to “it is what it is” which would mean for some, being left out in the cold. The issue I have with tests like the Myers Briggs is that it too closely resembles the same functional dichotomy of Astrology, the malleability of which is driven by the ego rather than something more soberingly thoughtful and more relegated by external realities.

Learning skiing is a thinking and feeling game. However, thinking and feeling are not always developmentally compatible. We have all met the instructor who has an encyclopedic knowledge of ski technique for whom an actual ski would be more useful as a bookmark. I believe that learning requires us to be able to collaborate our thinking and feeling but also to be able to separate our feeling from our thinking. I think about ski technique a tad more than the average nut bag. When I am skiing, I am rarely ever thinking and only feeling. If something didn’t “feel” right, I will think about it as soon as it bugs me enough to do so but more often not when I am NOT skiing. The more I think, the more I am “trying” to understand. The more I feel, the more that is understood. The more I think, the less I feel. This is how thinking gets in the way of learning. Confused? Think less and you will understand.

 

[L&AirC]

Doby Man,
Until I read your post, I never thought about how much feeling played into all this. I understand and knew that certain things have to be felt in order to do them. What your post immediately made me think of (as odd as it is) is throwing knives. Screw drivers actually. Spend a month on a mountain top in Korea and you'll figure out how to stick almost everything in your tool box in a piece of plywood leaning against a tree.

I'm sure there is some math on where to hold the knife but I always, and still do, go by feel. I hold the knife or screwdriver in my hand and based on the distance, know about where on the shaft to hold it. For me, this is probably 90% feel.

The more I think about skiing, the more I think it is about feel.

 

[BGreen]

The more I think about skiing, the more I think it is about feel.

Tying some recent threads together, the point of video is to calibrate feel (perception) with what is really happening (external reality).

 

[Doby Man]

JP, all due respect to BGreen, you don't need to read a book. I know all about the stabilization step. Classically, it is the first step you take from the bar stool. You want to start by putting one hand on the bar and the other on the back of the stool. With your feet on the ground, you want to extend both legs fully while rotating away from the bar. Do NOT over rotate. Check for cranial equilibrium before you dorsiflex your ankles and incline for that first step and "before" you let go of the bar and stool completely. Though one must use correct motor pattern sequence for it to work correctly. If you find yourself reaching for the back of the stool and the bar on your way to the floor, all the people's feet you will be looking at makes an excellent visual cue that your timing was off. The stabilization step has gotten me through many ski seasons and I often teach it to novice ski bums.

 

[Doby Man]

L&Airc, I appreciate knife throwing as a keen example. “Be” the knife or let the knife be an extension of you and feel the direction in which “you” wish to travel. See in your mind’s eye you (the knife) hitting its target and let that vision instigate a feeling that is facilitated through the action of throwing the knife. Thinking will only disrupt this pattern. Sometimes I think of developing patterns through the concept of addiction. If a feeling is rewarding to our pleasure center, we automatically enter a development process of both chasing more and more of that feeling, improving that feeling to a “higher” degree as well as to develop the facilities we use to access that feeling. When I make a powerful, clean, well balanced and effective turn it creates a feeling that stabs into my pleasure center. I then allow the automatic process of addiction to run rampant in my system and grooving out a trench (well defined kinetic path) in my neural pathways. I have been clean and sober since March but, by fall, the white knuckling starts to become too much. I tell people: “My boss fired me, my house was taken by the bank, my wife divorced me, child services took away my kids, my dog ran away, my hamster died in the wall and my goldfish went belly up … usually every November.”

For me, an example of a benefit of feeling vs. thinking is the differences of “thinking” anticipatorily and “feeling” anticipatorily. While we may not be able to think at the speed of skiing, we certainly can “feel” at the speed of skiing as they are one in the same. The ability to anticipate accurately, quickly and thoroughly is a core facet of ability. Especially regarding an ability to relegate anticipatory needs in the intuitive state. The better a skier is, the more they ski with intent and purpose, both of which rely explicitly on anticipation. In turn, the development of intuitive anticipation relies on the maniacal repetition of intent. Even our quick jerk reactions rely on unconscious anticipation that is organized in nanoseconds. Think of “feeling anticipatorily” as an intuitive funnel that concentrates all a skier's experience, ability and knowledge crossed with a streaming visual and ski feedback into immediate action to meet the present forces of a turn at hand.

I also think of anticipation as “indirect intent” and one that keeps you loose and ready or in a constant state of pliability with which to tackle the upcoming variances of forces needed and the ability to adjust to them in tenths of seconds without accessing the cerebellum (thoughts) at all. When we use our upper bodies to transmit a “direct intent” to our feet and skis, it is through a higher rate of muscular contractions, the sustained directive of which causes the loss of a certain measure of separation ability that requires relaxation of the muscles and we are trapping our upper bodies with both directive and reactionary responsibilities that can be more competently managed by the lower regions and the feet. Once a skier reaches a high skill level of upper/lower body separation, they find that the upper body is far less monopolized with reactionary responsibilities and retains a higher measure of anticipatory ability. An upper body with the quiet confidence of a relaxation born stillness of the CoM can better focus more on the path of least resistance that remains out ahead of the BoS no matter how steep, no matter how quick, no matter how fast we go. Anticipation is an element that can be seen as a vehicle to more evenly distribute the kinesis and our sensory capabilities throughout the turn.

In this regard, anticipation of the upper body can come in the form of angulation, inclination, rotation, flexion, extension, tipping and fore/aft/left/right pressure control. The goal for anticipation is the ability to meet the required upcomming and building forces with a well measured soft touch dose that is no more and no less than the force required. The main goal, effortlessness, becomes the benefactor of such a shrewd anticipatory economy. This “soft touch” is the progressivity of movement with which we allow anticipation take place.

I suppose that ski performance related anticipation can be divided into quite a number of subcategories such as technical/tactical, action/reaction, simultaneous/sequential, conscious/intuitive, cognitive/physical, micro/macro and so on. Right now, watching the news, I am macro anticipating a nuclear world war sparked between the US and North Korea which has me micro anticipating the best base prep and wax for skiing all the soft and supple beds of nuclear ash fallout we will have at our disposal. I further anticipate getting in a cover shot of the first edition of Fallout Magazine, a magazine still in its planning or, “anticipatory” stages: