White Pass turn, the definitive story

[slow-line-fast]

and a big thanks to Deb Armstrong for taking us along on days like this.

 

[geepers]

Oh goodie - another WP thread.

What Purpose(s) do(es) a White Pass Turn Serve?

Ok, the Shiffrin thread has morphed into a zillion topics, so let's try to bring a theme to this thread: what do you use a White Pass turn drill to accomplish? What ski and body performance are you looking for? @geepers posted this great video from the NZSIA with their thoughts about what a...

www.skitalk.com

Deb's vid was also posted in the retro tech thread.

Classic Techniques to Remind us where we came from, how far we have come

Takao Maruyama rotates the hips into the turn, see post 89. The opposite of counter.

www.skitalk.com

 

[Atomicman]

I saw this online elsewhere and was wondering when someone would bring this up on Skitalk! I have always felt like it wasn't a technique but an error. Happens to me if I get too much energy out of the ski at the end of a turn into the next, totally unintentional!

 

[James]

This has been talked about for decades. Video lets people hear it from the protagonists themselves.

Published in 1999-

What’s interesting is in that video, when asked about what he’s working on, Steve (?) says “early weight transfer”.

 

[Rod9301]

The wp turn is similar to the weighted release, which is a very fast way of releasing a turn. The key is to be able to transfer the weight to the new outside ski at any time.

 

[martyg]

Really listen to the entire episode. There is a lot of collective wisdom there.

 

[JESinstr]

From a certain perspective, skiing is not about sliding on the bottoms of your skis, it's about engaging the edges of your skis and therefore, a competent skier needs the ability to get to any edge and any edge angle at any time as the situation dictates.

 

[James]

I guess the Norwegian Drill is happening just after edge change? A little later than White Pass.

 

[slow-line-fast]

I guess the Norwegian Drill is happening just after edge change? A little later than White Pass.

Yes

That is also a great video series, from BMA and narrated by Mikaela Shiffrin

 

[martyg]

From a certain perspective, skiing is not about sliding on the bottoms of your skis, it's about engaging the edges of your skis and therefore, a competent skier needs the ability to get to any edge and any edge angle at any time as the situation dictates.

Skiing is about the five fundamentals. Edge control and “…sliding on your bottoms…” is all part of it.

 

[Seldomski]

If you want to ski with the Mahre brothers, you can:

Ski camps | Mahre Training Center

Phil and Steve Mahre developed Mahre Training Centers to provide 3 and 5 day adult ski camps in Deer Valley, Utah. Designed to help improve skiing for all ability levels.

www.mahretrainingcenter.com

I've done their camps 4x now (most recently at Whitefish this past season). They parted with Deer Valley this past season.

When they see people training the white pass turn, they laugh about it.

 

[JESinstr]

Skiing is about the five fundamentals. Edge control and “…sliding on your bottoms…” is all part of it.

Agreed. But for most, sliding isn't something that has to be taught. Using your edges and bending the ski is. Centered balance is fundamental for both disciplines.

 

[martyg]

Agreed. But for most, sliding isn't something that has to be taught. Using your edges and bending the ski is. Centered balance is fundamental for both disciplines.

As I said - the five fundamentals.

 

[Zirbl]

The wp turn is similar to the weighted release

Is there any difference at all, other than the name?

 

[geepers]

Is there any difference at all, other than the name?

Weighted release

www.effectiveskiing.com

From the article:
Something similar is known as the "white pass turn", which teaches releasing and transferring without any involvement of the old inside leg. The white pass as a drill, is a more extreme version of the weighted release, where the old inside ski is lifted and the new turn starts well on the new inside ski.

The weighted release is not just a drill, it is a release mechanism in its own right, especially useful in bad snow and often encountered in Giant Slalom.

Also, commonly the white pass turn is done with an extension and exaggerated lifting of the inside ski, while the weighted release is executed by flexing and un-tipping the outside leg/ski, as are all high-performance releases. The slight unweighting/relaxing and flexing of the outside leg will allow tipping it off the edge, while still maintaining some weight on that edge and keeping it engaged.

White pass

www.effectiveskiing.com

From the article:
This is a great drill - lift the inside ski at the end of the turn and start the new turn on the old outside ski (which will become the new inside ski):
There are several variations.

• The old "white pass lean" is where you lean the upper body into the new turn, so more inclination than angulation or flexion.
• A modern Weighted release where you flex to release but still maintain weight on the old outside ski and transition that way.
• Also switching the weight to the new outside ski, can happen late in the new turn, which is started on the old outside ski (new inside) aka the "white pass lean" or the more modern style: switch before the fall line.

 

[Zirbl]

From the article:

Thanks, interesting breakdown. So is this distinction generally made, or just by the author of the Effective Skiing website? My understanding was that the turn itself was initially referred to as a White Pass turn, and it was renamed a weighted release by HH, and that has stuck in some circles. But I might be wrong.

 

[geepers]

Thanks, interesting breakdown. So is this distinction generally made, or just by the author of the Effective Skiing website? My understanding was that the turn itself was initially referred to as a White Pass turn, and it was renamed a weighted release by HH, and that has stuck in some circles. But I might be wrong.

No idea what it is generally known as - just seems like transitions using the old outside ski with varying amounts on DIRT. There's huge variation in what gets called a WP turn. EG the PSIA vid in the Effective Skiing article:


compared to this:


Don't really understand what that particular PSIA version achieves for participants. MHO the NZ version (or Guy Hethington's version or BPS's version) do what Effective Skiing describe - help build edge angle through inclination early in the turn, before angulation. Which could be good or not good, depending on the student issue.

When they see people training the white pass turn, they laugh about it.

Wonder if they laughed about this win. Watch the 5 right turns from 0:43.

 

[James]

Heh, the Brignone thing is great, usually you see it in gs.

Don't really understand what that particular PSIA version achieves for participants. MHO the NZ version (or Guy Hethington's version or BPS's version) do what Effective Skiing describe - help build edge angle through inclination early in the turn, before angulation. Which could be good or not good, depending on the student issue.

That demo was pretty lame. Did he even get it off the snow? And it’s a little short.
The NZ turns are higher performance, but bending the outside leg and lifting the ski that high doesn’t really do much except perhaps help you incline. It looks cool though.

 

[Zirbl]

Wonder if they laughed about this win.

Did they laugh at their own wins? They're clearly not denying that it happens or that it's useful.

Heh, the Brignone thing is great, usually you see it in gs.

On UK Eurosport, usually accompanied by "Oh, she's on the inside ski ... but she's got the green light."

 

[James]

Did they laugh at their own wins? They're clearly not denying that it happens or that it's useful.

I wouldn’t make that much out of that supposed statement.
Besides, since it was a mistake of sorts, they won in spite of the white pass turn.

It’s a little like maybe 10-12 years ago Ron LeMaster wrote an article in Ski Racing about the Stivot. I don’t remember the exact issue for Ted Ligety’s response, but it was along the lines of “no, it’s important to train carving the turn, not the stivot”