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[James]

I think we are in agreement. Read description below again regarding the divergence and how it relates to amounts of rotation in the femur and in the ankle.


The usual explanation for divergence is often too much weight on the inside ski. I feel it gets worse when the inside ski is unweighted and has no weight. And I get less divergence when trying to actively put a lot of weight on the inside ski. Blasmephy I know, but makes sense to an ex tele skier. More weight on the inside ski is the standard prescription drug against "lazy inside leg syndrome" in telemark skiers. Like when the inside is not edged and there is too much tip lead in the opposite direction (!). But I don't want to ski with a lot of weight on the inside ski so perhaps a bit of a side track, but also perhaps a useful excersise.

Gellie's explanation just lined up so well with how I described it to myself in this thread in 2018 (the qoute), in terms of how this divergence feels to me and how it relates to rotation in ankle and rotation of femur in the hip of the inside leg. The subscription BPS version of the "Fixing tip splay" video is a bit more spesific.

I'm really duckfooted and my legs and feet naturally points outward. The understanding is not the problem, that was there in 2018, But when you are duckfooted then it takes a good bit of effort to not have them point outward and to get to a point where you are able to do that subconsciously in all skiing situations. Thinking of it as a cause and not yet another symptom helps commitment.

The prescribed fix a bit more tension in the muscles that rotates the inside ankle out of the turn, and to avoid too much knee pointing (external femur rotation) into the turn of the same leg. Gellie likened it to embedding habits like skiing with you core activated. In need to do that too...

I have an indoor ski hill 25 min drive from home. It's short (80 vertikal meters) and the lift is very slow, so it's not a place for getting a lot of milage. But for some tasks like this it can be perfect, no distractions or temptations to just ski. The more hung on details, the better...

So just making a commitment to fix these issues before next winter season. And saying it out loud helps commitment, thanks for listening ;-)

Do you ride the lift with skis in a V like this guy in the middle-

 

[LiquidFeet]

^ @LiquidFeet - this one has me a little confused... normally your posts are very clear so maybe be my problem.

So a couple of questions in red below for clarity...

@geepers, you are right. Sorry for the confusion.
My post upthread should have read:

Point your new inside foot's toes in the opposite direction of the new turn, to the inside of the body, as you tip that foot. This sounds counter-intuitive, and it is, but it works. The toe pointing exaggerates/enhances to tipping.

If on the other hand you are attempting to get that foot tipped to the LTE and at the same time rotating the foot to point in the direction of the new turn, the rotation will cancel out the tipping, or at least reduce it.

As you point the new inside foot's toes to the inside of the body and tip to the LTE, roll that knee outward and down, towards the snow. You don't want to be rolling the new inside knee inward towards the other knee. That will delete any good tipping that you are doing at the level of the foot.

In the post above, you speak of "a tension of opposing rotations." It sounds like you have that tension backwards. Try doing it this way: rotate foot in, rotate femur out. This will get that foot tipped, keep it close to the other foot, and eliminate that A-frame.

The sensation you will be chasing is going bowlegged while inviting a sprained ankle.

 

[mdf]

Do you ride the lift with skis in a V like this guy in the middle-

Yet I'm not duck-footed. It is a puzzlement.

 

[James]

Yet I'm not duck-footed. It is a puzzlement.

It’s a hip thing, a knee looseness?
A lot of duck footed walking seems to come from the hips, or maybe it’s a chicken and egg thing.

 

[Smear]

Do you ride the lift with skis in a V like this guy in the middle-

View attachment 201886

Yup, very much like the middle guy. But can cycle with toes pointing straight ahead for 140 km without kneepain or 30 km distance xc classic (but prefer to skate). So preference to toe out but not a terminal condition ;-)

 

[James]

Yup, very much like the middle guy. But can cycle with toes pointing straight ahead for 140 km without kneepain or 30 km distance xc classic (but prefer to skate). So preference to toe out but not a terminal condition ;-)

What about walking?

 

[Smear]

What about walking?

Also toe out walking. But think it straightens out a bit when running.

 

[LiquidFeet]

A lot of duck footed walking seems to come from the hips, or maybe it’s a chicken and egg thing.

That's it.

There's femoral retroversion and anteversion. This has to do
with how the head of the femur is formed, and that shapes the
way the femur inserts into the pelvis/acetabulum/hip joint.
Anteversion or retroversion determines many things happening
down below the hip joint.

Anteversion means you can sit in the W position (or could as
a child when you were limber) but not cross-legged, and it
means you tend to sit on the lift with ski tips diverted.
A-framing accompanies anteversion. People with anteverted
hips have an easier time skiing in a wedge.

The image on the right above shows femoral anteversion.
The one on the right shows retroversion. The image below
shows what the effects at the foot are.

Anteversion is also associated with excessive pronation.

To test for anteversion, you can do a Craig test.

Confirmation rests on degree of rotation shown below.

Femoral anteversion is far less common than retroversion.
And then there's "normal" which I suppose is most common.

Boston Children's Hospital:
Femoral anteversion occurs in up to 10 percent of children.
The condition is somewhat more common in girls than boys.
It often, but not always, affects both legs.

 

[SkiMore]

It’s a hip thing, a knee looseness?
A lot of duck footed walking seems to come from the hips, or maybe it’s a chicken and egg thing.

I learned about this being a hip thing from this video. This shows up when you do a squat, with heels on planted on the ground, to see direction do your toes point. It seems to be related to the angle of the ball and socket of the hip joint.


Antiversion: excessive internal rotation, limited external rotation
Retroversion: excessive external rotation, limited internal rotation

 

[Yepow]

That's it.
There's femoral retroversion and anteversion. Differences at the end of the spectrum determine if you can sit with legs crossed or in the W position, and whether you sit on the lift with ski tip diversion.
View attachment 201904
The image on the right above shows femoral anteversion. The one on the right shows retroversion. The image below shows what the effects at the foot are.
View attachment 201903

Let's say I am retroverted relative to the above. What are the implications for skiing and how should I try to accommodate/correct for this deviation from "normal"?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Let's say I am retroverted relative to the above. What are the implications for skiing and how should I try to accommodate/correct for this deviation from "normal"?

Eliminating A-framing can be trained. Go bowlegged with the new inside leg and tip the ankle outward and point the toes inward relative to the body. AKA roll knee out, point toes in, tip at the ankle to the LTE. Practice practice practice.

Don't bother to straighten the skis on the lift. Wasted effort with no pay-back. Ask me how I know all this.

 

[Smear]

Eliminating A-framing can be trained. Go bowlegged with the new inside leg and tip the ankle outward and point the toes inward relative to the body. AKA roll knee out, point toes in, tip at the ankle to the LTE. Practice practice practice.

Don't bother to straighten the skis on the lift. Wasted effort with no pay-back. Ask me how I know all this.

Or depending on who you listen to, be careful with the cueing the bowlegged and roll knee out part. Can have unintended consequences. Focus on the ankle part and on keeping some tension in the muscles that adducts the inside leg and keeps it closer to the outside leg. But you know better than to listen to random aussies @Yepow ? ;-)

 

[James]

Don't bother to straighten the skis on the lift. Wasted effort with no pay-back.

Maybe if you’re riding alone. It’s annoying, and spreaders tend to be terrible exiters and take someone else down getting off. From photo posted before, guy on left refuses to ride with spreader in middle after a few incidents.

I take it this guy is not retroverted, or this would be uncomfortable-

 

[Yepow]

Or depending on who you listen to, be careful with the cueing the bowlegged and roll knee out part. Can have unintended consequences. Focus on the ankle part and on keeping some tension in the muscles that adducts the inside leg and keeps it closer to the outside leg. But you know better than to listen to random aussies @Yepow ? ;-)

I PAY to listen to random Aussies!

Eliminating A-framing can be trained. Go bowlegged with the new inside leg and tip the ankle outward and point the toes inward relative to the body. AKA roll knee out, point toes in, tip at the ankle to the LTE. Practice practice practice.

Don't bother to straighten the skis on the lift. Wasted effort with no pay-back. Ask me how I know all this.

I think like my earlier anatomy lessons around hip mobility, I have an anatomical "divergence from typical" that is making this hard for me. Yes, I haven't trained it yet, yes, it can be learned--I think might be why it has been difficult for me to learn, even more difficult than the rest of skiing.

I will go and read your toe pointing carefully and come back and ask questions. I have difficulty with which toes pointed how and what the ankle is doing in the plantar/dorsiflexion (SKI SCHOOL BINGO) plane when pointing.

 

[geepers]

Yet I'm not duck-footed. It is a puzzlement.

Isn't it just manspreading? Which is sort of like mansplaining but done sitting down.

I PAY to listen to random Aussies!

That's great news! We have a large balance of payment problem with North America. With the USA it's all the fancy military toys (F35s, nuc subs). With Canada it's all the Aussie skiers who visit. Your $xx.xx per month should cover coffee for an F35 pilot or two. (Possibly a whole squadron if it's instant.) Every bit helps!

 

[LiquidFeet]

I PAY to listen to random Aussies!


I think like my earlier anatomy lessons around hip mobility, I have an anatomical "divergence from typical" that is making this hard for me. Yes, I haven't trained it yet, yes, it can be learned--I think might be why it has been difficult for me to learn, even more difficult than the rest of skiing.

I will go and read your toe pointing carefully and come back and ask questions. I have difficulty with which toes pointed how and what the ankle is doing in the plantar/dorsiflexion (SKI SCHOOL BINGO) plane when pointing.

Note that I got which way to point mixed up. When I say point toes to the inside of the turn, I meant to say point toes to the inside of the body. I fixed it later in the thread, but reading the original will be misleading.

 

[James]

That’s why left footed and right footed turns, with inside and outside, is an easier nomenclature, but only racers routinely use it.

Speaking of nomenclature, why is psia at Levi using the term “snow plow” when it hasn’t been used here for 25 years?

 

[SkiMore]

All signs point to me having retroversion to some degree. I remember as a kid being slightly duck footed. I have more external hip rotation than internal hip rotation. I'm slightly knock kneed. As a kid I forced myself to walk and run with straight feet, and to this day I walk and run with straight feet.

When I do squats at the gym, I can only get to a low position by having my feet point outwards. Your feet have to be firmly planted on the three points under your feet to do a squat. I cannot force myself to squat with straight feet like I can with walking/running.



What I realized from reading this thread is what I have been doing all these years to walk with straight feet is the same movement of turning my feet towards the inside of my body that Liquidfeet described above. That results in walking more on outside edge of my foot (pinkie toe side). And I can see that on the soles of my running shoes that have a wear pattern more on the outside of the shoe sole. This explains why I squat with feet wide because with straight feet I would have most pressure on just the outside of my foot which would never work in a squat. Interesting realization for me from this thread.

Last offseason I spent a lot of time on ankle mobility, especially dorsiflexion and lateral flexion. This offseason my focus is hip mobility.

 

[markojp]

That’s why left footed and right footed turns, with inside and outside, is an easier nomenclature, but only racers routinely use it.

Broad brush... I use it with our instructors and people I work with and clinic all the time in a non-race context.

 

[James]

All signs point to me having retroversion to some degree. I remember as a kid being slightly duck footed. I have more external hip rotation than internal hip rotation. I'm slightly knock kneed. As a kid I forced myself to walk and run with straight feet, and to this day I walk and run with straight feet.

When I do squats at the gym, I can only get to a low position by having my feet point outwards. Your feet have to be firmly planted on the three points under your feet to do a squat. I cannot force myself to squat with straight feet like I can with walking/running.

View attachment 202236

What I realized from reading this thread is what I have been doing all these years to walk with straight feet is the same movement of turning my feet towards the inside of my body that Liquidfeet described above. That results in walking more on outside edge of my foot (pinkie toe side). And I can see that on the soles of my running shoes that have a wear pattern more on the outside of the shoe sole. This explains why I squat with feet wide because with straight feet I would have most pressure on just the outside of my foot which would never work in a squat. Interesting realization for me from this thread.

Last offseason I spent a lot of time on ankle mobility, especially dorsiflexion and lateral flexion. This offseason my focus is hip mobility.

Did you ever try the Fischer Somatec boots with their large, for a ski boot, duck footed stance?
Years ago I think Dachstein? Had an adjustable heel to change the rail angle. (Pigeon to duck stance)