Arapahoe Basin will no longer use volunteer patrol after 4 decades

[DanoT]

Even in the emergency room you have to wait for x-rays to get a dislocated shoulder reduced. (Last year my wife slipped in the kitchen and tried to catch herself on the counter behind her. ) Once they have confirmed it is just a simple dislocation putting it back takes 15 seconds.

A few years ago while skiing just ahead of doctor friend, I came upon a skier sitting on the side of the run, skis off, face as pale as a ghost, one shoulder noticeably lower than the other, This guy was another friend and former ski instructor, very good skier. So I said to him. "Johnny you are going to find this hard to believe but this is your lucky day because in less than 30 seconds your doctor will be making a house call".

When Dr. Ed arrived he took off his skis and knelt down beside his patient and felt around the shoulder. He then stood up, grabbed John's wrist and then Dr. Ed stuck his ski boot clad foot in John's arm pit and gave a tug and popped the shoulder back in place. Ed is not a GP, but and emergency room doctor who has probably reduced dozens of separated shoulders before. First time wearing ski boots I'll bet.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

I've actually been in some patrol rooms where they keep a 5lb dumbbell on hand. "apparently" the patient will attach the dumbbell to their hand with an ace bandage and then lie down with their arm dangling off the table.

Both my shoulder dislocations were fixed at mountain clinics by the weight hanging method. Mountain clinics are better because they can give you drugs to help relax the muscles to get the shoulder back in. Used the UVM Orthopedic Clinic at Sugarbush after my last injury at MRG. Pain was so intense that I found it nearly impossible to ski. Shoulder has stayed in place the last 16 seasons. Mountain clinics are my choice for quick relief.

 

[Monique]

Pain was so intense that I found it nearly impossible to ski.

I just kind of want to sit back and appreciate this quote.

 

[James]

We've had a family member who's an MD but not an ortho put back a dislocated shoulder on the race course. A 1st time dislocation for the patient. But the subject, who was known, not random, insisted on an attempt right away.

I know the first time I did it even with muscle relaxants the doctor had his foot in my ribs and was pulling on the arm and it took a lot.
After half a dozen times coming out I could get it in myself. But there is chipped bone on the socket.

 

[DanoT]

In the story in my post #101, after Dr. Ed reduced the separated shoulder he told John that he was ok to ski back to his chalet at the bottom of the intermediate cruiser run that we were on. But John, although a former ski instructor, chose to have us call for a patrol toboggan due to the pain.

 

[lonewolf210]

The reasons I have been told that we don't reduce shoulders in the NSP is because of the potential for nerve complications and very remotely the possibility of artery injury.

In terms of of paid versus volunteer there is almost no difference at my mountain with the exception of a few tasks that largely has more to do with liability rather then a different training level. I have also noticed what appears to be a trend for ski areas to be moving away away from EMT to OEC. For example Squaw now requires that all patrollers be OEC certified and I believe that they used to prefer EMT-B. IN reality the distinction between the two isn't all that big at least in most states. The test is more difficult for EMT-B but in terms of scope of care, at least in Nevada, I'm not aware of any thing that an EMT-B can do that I can't with an OEC cert.

 

[Jeff N]

I had no idea A-Basin still had a volunteer patrol.

Locally, only Hesperus has volunteer patrol to my knowledge, and the days of that appear to be limited with the ski are selling to James Coleman last year. Word from patrollers is that they were given 1 season to prove they could operate at a level consistent with Purgatory. Word from the same patrollers is that they don't feel they met that mark and are waiting to hear what happens.

I had my worst on-mountain injury at Hesperus night skiing a few years back and needed a toboggan ride. I hit something under the snow and fell with all my weight onto my left leg/ski boot. We thought it was a boot top fib fracture (turned out to just be a nasty bone bruise).

Getting me off the mountain was a comedy of errors that reflected some serious deficiencies in Hesperus' volunteer patrol.

1. Patroller (a friend) makes contact with me while I am down and we agree I need a sled ride. He's the one that brings up that my pain sounds like a possible fib fracture.
2. He calls on radio for a toboggan. Radio acknowledges.
3. 20 minutes go by, no toboggan. We are on a run under the lift line.
4. He calls again for a sled, gets an answer like "oh yeah."
5. A few minutes later, a snowmobile starts heading up, toboggan in tow. My friend states "Oh no, not like that. That snowmobile sucks and no way it won't get stuck (about 4" of powder on the run).
6. Crummy Snowmobile gets stuck. Patroller spends 10 minutes trying to get the snowmobile up 100' to us. They could have walked it up in that time.
7. Snowmobile goes back down. Patroller loads lift with toboggan. I ask "Wouldn't there be a toboggan up top?" Patroller friend says "there should be." Patroller friend gives opinion that the reason the toboggan was not skied down from the top from the get-go is that the patroller may not feel comfortable piloting an EMPTY sled. He also states that the patroller is likely nervous about dropping a toboggan off the lift as well.
8. Finally, a sled gets there. I have been lying in the snow unable to stand for about 30 minutes at this point, at night, freezing my ass off.
9. They start opening up the toboggan to get me in it. I watch a patroller take out the foam pad and set it in the snow. I start to lunge for it, but too late, it instantly starts sliding down the mountain at warp speed.
10. A skier unloads from the mid-load and begins traversing across the run, looking downhill. Sure enough, the foam pad hits him/her dead on and takes their feet out from underneath.
11. Patroller tries to tell me the person knocked over "was their friend" and meant to catch the pad. Um, no, the person wasn't looking uphill and showed zero awareness they were getting blindsided by a runaway toboggan pad.
12. Patroller then skis down, retrieves the pad, and takes the lift back up with the pad.
13. Finally, the pad and the toboggan are reunited. I get bundled in. It has been about 50 minutes since initial contact and I am finally off the snow.
14. We make a semi-controlled descent down. Speed moderation is clearly a concern- this is going WAY faster than seems typical, and the "whoah, whoah" exclamations from the two patrollers are really unsettling.
15. My suspicions about a lack of control are confirmed when we go barreling through the bunny hill area. Clearly they can't stop to avoid the very young beginner skiers that populate the bunny hill. A tiny 4-6 year old kid makes a slow sweep into the path of the toboggan. I fear the worst. Patroller start yelling for the child to clear out.
16. My friend the patroller scoops the child up and deposits him back to the side. The child avoid getting bowled over by 600 lbs of patrollers and myself on a toboggan.
17. I begin worrying that they will be unable to stop in front of patrol HQ and that this toboggan train is going to go straight into the side of the building. It seems a near miss.

So... yes, I can see a new owner not wanting to take on the liability of a patrol that can't reliably give somebody a toboggan ride. I've heard from people involved at Hesperus on both the patrol and operations side expressing a dire fear of the possibility of a chairlift evacuation. I heard both that there are not enough people trained to perform it (one isn't around most nights) and doubts that the people "trained" would be successful.

 

[Monique]

... seems woefully inadequate as a response.

 

[James]

I had no idea A-Basin still had a volunteer patrol.

Locally, only Hesperus has volunteer patrol to my knowledge, and the days of that appear to be limited with the ski are selling to James Coleman last year. Word from patrollers is that they were given 1 season to prove they could operate at a level consistent with Purgatory. Word from the same patrollers is that they don't feel they met that mark and are waiting to hear what happens.

I had my worst on-mountain injury at Hesperus night skiing a few years back and needed a toboggan ride. I hit something under the snow and fell with all my weight onto my left leg/ski boot. We thought it was a boot top fib fracture (turned out to just be a nasty bone bruise).

Getting me off the mountain was a comedy of errors that reflected some serious deficiencies in Hesperus' volunteer patrol.

1. Patroller (a friend) makes contact with me while I am down and we agree I need a sled ride. He's the one that brings up that my pain sounds like a possible fib fracture.
2. He calls on radio for a toboggan. Radio acknowledges.
3. 20 minutes go by, no toboggan. We are on a run under the lift line.
4. He calls again for a sled, gets an answer like "oh yeah."
5. A few minutes later, a snowmobile starts heading up, toboggan in tow. My friend states "Oh no, not like that. That snowmobile sucks and no way it won't get stuck (about 4" of powder on the run).
6. Crummy Snowmobile gets stuck. Patroller spends 10 minutes trying to get the snowmobile up 100' to us. They could have walked it up in that time.
7. Snowmobile goes back down. Patroller loads lift with toboggan. I ask "Wouldn't there be a toboggan up top?" Patroller friend says "there should be." Patroller friend gives opinion that the reason the toboggan was not skied down from the top from the get-go is that the patroller may not feel comfortable piloting an EMPTY sled. He also states that the patroller is likely nervous about dropping a toboggan off the lift as well.
8. Finally, a sled gets there. I have been lying in the snow unable to stand for about 30 minutes at this point, at night, freezing my ass off.
9. They start opening up the toboggan to get me in it. I watch a patroller take out the foam pad and set it in the snow. I start to lunge for it, but too late, it instantly starts sliding down the mountain at warp speed.
10. A skier unloads from the mid-load and begins traversing across the run, looking downhill. Sure enough, the foam pad hits him/her dead on and takes their feet out from underneath.
11. Patroller tries to tell me the person knocked over "was their friend" and meant to catch the pad. Um, no, the person wasn't looking uphill and showed zero awareness they were getting blindsided by a runaway toboggan pad.
12. Patroller then skis down, retrieves the pad, and takes the lift back up with the pad.
13. Finally, the pad and the toboggan are reunited. I get bundled in. It has been about 50 minutes since initial contact and I am finally off the snow.
14. We make a semi-controlled descent down. Speed moderation is clearly a concern- this is going WAY faster than seems typical, and the "whoah, whoah" exclamations from the two patrollers are really unsettling.
15. My suspicions about a lack of control are confirmed when we go barreling through the bunny hill area. Clearly they can't stop to avoid the very young beginner skiers that populate the bunny hill. A tiny 4-6 year old kid makes a slow sweep into the path of the toboggan. I fear the worst. Patroller start yelling for the child to clear out.
16. My friend the patroller scoops the child up and deposits him back to the side. The child avoid getting bowled over by 600 lbs of patrollers and myself on a toboggan.
17. I begin worrying that they will be unable to stop in front of patrol HQ and that this toboggan train is going to go straight into the side of the building. It seems a near miss.

So... yes, I can see a new owner not wanting to take on the liability of a patrol that can't reliably give somebody a toboggan ride. I've heard from people involved at Hesperus on both the patrol and operations side expressing a dire fear of the possibility of a chairlift evacuation. I heard both that there are not enough people trained to perform it (one isn't around most nights) and doubts that the people "trained" would be successful.

That's just bad.
It's management and training.
I don't see it as a volunteer issue other than maybe you can't get people to volunteer? It's not like patrollers are well paid afaik.

 

[lonewolf210]

I had no idea A-Basin still had a volunteer patrol.

Locally, only Hesperus has volunteer patrol to my knowledge, and the days of that appear to be limited with the ski are selling to James Coleman last year. Word from patrollers is that they were given 1 season to prove they could operate at a level consistent with Purgatory. Word from the same patrollers is that they don't feel they met that mark and are waiting to hear what happens.

I had my worst on-mountain injury at Hesperus night skiing a few years back and needed a toboggan ride. I hit something under the snow and fell with all my weight onto my left leg/ski boot. We thought it was a boot top fib fracture (turned out to just be a nasty bone bruise).

Getting me off the mountain was a comedy of errors that reflected some serious deficiencies in Hesperus' volunteer patrol.

1. Patroller (a friend) makes contact with me while I am down and we agree I need a sled ride. He's the one that brings up that my pain sounds like a possible fib fracture.
2. He calls on radio for a toboggan. Radio acknowledges.
3. 20 minutes go by, no toboggan. We are on a run under the lift line.
4. He calls again for a sled, gets an answer like "oh yeah."
5. A few minutes later, a snowmobile starts heading up, toboggan in tow. My friend states "Oh no, not like that. That snowmobile sucks and no way it won't get stuck (about 4" of powder on the run).
6. Crummy Snowmobile gets stuck. Patroller spends 10 minutes trying to get the snowmobile up 100' to us. They could have walked it up in that time.
7. Snowmobile goes back down. Patroller loads lift with toboggan. I ask "Wouldn't there be a toboggan up top?" Patroller friend says "there should be." Patroller friend gives opinion that the reason the toboggan was not skied down from the top from the get-go is that the patroller may not feel comfortable piloting an EMPTY sled. He also states that the patroller is likely nervous about dropping a toboggan off the lift as well.
8. Finally, a sled gets there. I have been lying in the snow unable to stand for about 30 minutes at this point, at night, freezing my ass off.
9. They start opening up the toboggan to get me in it. I watch a patroller take out the foam pad and set it in the snow. I start to lunge for it, but too late, it instantly starts sliding down the mountain at warp speed.
10. A skier unloads from the mid-load and begins traversing across the run, looking downhill. Sure enough, the foam pad hits him/her dead on and takes their feet out from underneath.
11. Patroller tries to tell me the person knocked over "was their friend" and meant to catch the pad. Um, no, the person wasn't looking uphill and showed zero awareness they were getting blindsided by a runaway toboggan pad.
12. Patroller then skis down, retrieves the pad, and takes the lift back up with the pad.
13. Finally, the pad and the toboggan are reunited. I get bundled in. It has been about 50 minutes since initial contact and I am finally off the snow.
14. We make a semi-controlled descent down. Speed moderation is clearly a concern- this is going WAY faster than seems typical, and the "whoah, whoah" exclamations from the two patrollers are really unsettling.
15. My suspicions about a lack of control are confirmed when we go barreling through the bunny hill area. Clearly they can't stop to avoid the very young beginner skiers that populate the bunny hill. A tiny 4-6 year old kid makes a slow sweep into the path of the toboggan. I fear the worst. Patroller start yelling for the child to clear out.
16. My friend the patroller scoops the child up and deposits him back to the side. The child avoid getting bowled over by 600 lbs of patrollers and myself on a toboggan.
17. I begin worrying that they will be unable to stop in front of patrol HQ and that this toboggan train is going to go straight into the side of the building. It seems a near miss.

So... yes, I can see a new owner not wanting to take on the liability of a patrol that can't reliably give somebody a toboggan ride. I've heard from people involved at Hesperus on both the patrol and operations side expressing a dire fear of the possibility of a chairlift evacuation. I heard both that there are not enough people trained to perform it (one isn't around most nights) and doubts that the people "trained" would be successful.

That is just completely unacceptable. Did they not have a chain break? In even moderately soft snow they would have to be lifting up on the horns to keep the tobbogan moving if the break was down and on a bunny hill. That's not to mention the rest of the issues. They should have a proficient sled puller comfortable in thpose conditions at the top of the hill for those reasons.

 

[James]

Well I guess if Jeff N had been at Aspen/Snowmass he would have gotten Fentanyl to help with the 1 hour wait.

 

[Carolinacub]

I had no idea A-Basin still had a volunteer patrol.

Locally, only Hesperus has volunteer patrol to my knowledge, and the days of that appear to be limited with the ski are selling to James Coleman last year. Word from patrollers is that they were given 1 season to prove they could operate at a level consistent with Purgatory. Word from the same patrollers is that they don't feel they met that mark and are waiting to hear what happens.

I had my worst on-mountain injury at Hesperus night skiing a few years back and needed a toboggan ride. I hit something under the snow and fell with all my weight onto my left leg/ski boot. We thought it was a boot top fib fracture (turned out to just be a nasty bone bruise).

Getting me off the mountain was a comedy of errors that reflected some serious deficiencies in Hesperus' volunteer patrol.

1. Patroller (a friend) makes contact with me while I am down and we agree I need a sled ride. He's the one that brings up that my pain sounds like a possible fib fracture.
2. He calls on radio for a toboggan. Radio acknowledges.
3. 20 minutes go by, no toboggan. We are on a run under the lift line.
4. He calls again for a sled, gets an answer like "oh yeah."
5. A few minutes later, a snowmobile starts heading up, toboggan in tow. My friend states "Oh no, not like that. That snowmobile sucks and no way it won't get stuck (about 4" of powder on the run).
6. Crummy Snowmobile gets stuck. Patroller spends 10 minutes trying to get the snowmobile up 100' to us. They could have walked it up in that time.
7. Snowmobile goes back down. Patroller loads lift with toboggan. I ask "Wouldn't there be a toboggan up top?" Patroller friend says "there should be." Patroller friend gives opinion that the reason the toboggan was not skied down from the top from the get-go is that the patroller may not feel comfortable piloting an EMPTY sled. He also states that the patroller is likely nervous about dropping a toboggan off the lift as well.
8. Finally, a sled gets there. I have been lying in the snow unable to stand for about 30 minutes at this point, at night, freezing my ass off.
9. They start opening up the toboggan to get me in it. I watch a patroller take out the foam pad and set it in the snow. I start to lunge for it, but too late, it instantly starts sliding down the mountain at warp speed.
10. A skier unloads from the mid-load and begins traversing across the run, looking downhill. Sure enough, the foam pad hits him/her dead on and takes their feet out from underneath.
11. Patroller tries to tell me the person knocked over "was their friend" and meant to catch the pad. Um, no, the person wasn't looking uphill and showed zero awareness they were getting blindsided by a runaway toboggan pad.
12. Patroller then skis down, retrieves the pad, and takes the lift back up with the pad.
13. Finally, the pad and the toboggan are reunited. I get bundled in. It has been about 50 minutes since initial contact and I am finally off the snow.
14. We make a semi-controlled descent down. Speed moderation is clearly a concern- this is going WAY faster than seems typical, and the "whoah, whoah" exclamations from the two patrollers are really unsettling.
15. My suspicions about a lack of control are confirmed when we go barreling through the bunny hill area. Clearly they can't stop to avoid the very young beginner skiers that populate the bunny hill. A tiny 4-6 year old kid makes a slow sweep into the path of the toboggan. I fear the worst. Patroller start yelling for the child to clear out.
16. My friend the patroller scoops the child up and deposits him back to the side. The child avoid getting bowled over by 600 lbs of patrollers and myself on a toboggan.
17. I begin worrying that they will be unable to stop in front of patrol HQ and that this toboggan train is going to go straight into the side of the building. It seems a near miss.

So... yes, I can see a new owner not wanting to take on the liability of a patrol that can't reliably give somebody a toboggan ride. I've heard from people involved at Hesperus on both the patrol and operations side expressing a dire fear of the possibility of a chairlift evacuation. I heard both that there are not enough people trained to perform it (one isn't around most nights) and doubts that the people "trained" would be successful.

wow-just-wow...as James said. that's management and training.

 

[pais alto]

I had no idea A-Basin still had a volunteer patrol.

Locally, only Hesperus has volunteer patrol to my knowledge, and the days of that appear to be limited with the ski are selling to James Coleman last year. Word from patrollers is that they were given 1 season to prove they could operate at a level consistent with Purgatory. Word from the same patrollers is that they don't feel they met that mark and are waiting to hear what happens.

I had my worst on-mountain injury at Hesperus night skiing a few years back and needed a toboggan ride. I hit something under the snow and fell with all my weight onto my left leg/ski boot. We thought it was a boot top fib fracture (turned out to just be a nasty bone bruise).

Getting me off the mountain was a comedy of errors that reflected some serious deficiencies in Hesperus' volunteer patrol.

1. Patroller (a friend) makes contact with me while I am down and we agree I need a sled ride. He's the one that brings up that my pain sounds like a possible fib fracture.
2. He calls on radio for a toboggan. Radio acknowledges.
3. 20 minutes go by, no toboggan. We are on a run under the lift line.
4. He calls again for a sled, gets an answer like "oh yeah."
5. A few minutes later, a snowmobile starts heading up, toboggan in tow. My friend states "Oh no, not like that. That snowmobile sucks and no way it won't get stuck (about 4" of powder on the run).
6. Crummy Snowmobile gets stuck. Patroller spends 10 minutes trying to get the snowmobile up 100' to us. They could have walked it up in that time.
7. Snowmobile goes back down. Patroller loads lift with toboggan. I ask "Wouldn't there be a toboggan up top?" Patroller friend says "there should be." Patroller friend gives opinion that the reason the toboggan was not skied down from the top from the get-go is that the patroller may not feel comfortable piloting an EMPTY sled. He also states that the patroller is likely nervous about dropping a toboggan off the lift as well.
8. Finally, a sled gets there. I have been lying in the snow unable to stand for about 30 minutes at this point, at night, freezing my ass off.
9. They start opening up the toboggan to get me in it. I watch a patroller take out the foam pad and set it in the snow. I start to lunge for it, but too late, it instantly starts sliding down the mountain at warp speed.
10. A skier unloads from the mid-load and begins traversing across the run, looking downhill. Sure enough, the foam pad hits him/her dead on and takes their feet out from underneath.
11. Patroller tries to tell me the person knocked over "was their friend" and meant to catch the pad. Um, no, the person wasn't looking uphill and showed zero awareness they were getting blindsided by a runaway toboggan pad.
12. Patroller then skis down, retrieves the pad, and takes the lift back up with the pad.
13. Finally, the pad and the toboggan are reunited. I get bundled in. It has been about 50 minutes since initial contact and I am finally off the snow.
14. We make a semi-controlled descent down. Speed moderation is clearly a concern- this is going WAY faster than seems typical, and the "whoah, whoah" exclamations from the two patrollers are really unsettling.
15. My suspicions about a lack of control are confirmed when we go barreling through the bunny hill area. Clearly they can't stop to avoid the very young beginner skiers that populate the bunny hill. A tiny 4-6 year old kid makes a slow sweep into the path of the toboggan. I fear the worst. Patroller start yelling for the child to clear out.
16. My friend the patroller scoops the child up and deposits him back to the side. The child avoid getting bowled over by 600 lbs of patrollers and myself on a toboggan.
17. I begin worrying that they will be unable to stop in front of patrol HQ and that this toboggan train is going to go straight into the side of the building. It seems a near miss.

So... yes, I can see a new owner not wanting to take on the liability of a patrol that can't reliably give somebody a toboggan ride. I've heard from people involved at Hesperus on both the patrol and operations side expressing a dire fear of the possibility of a chairlift evacuation. I heard both that there are not enough people trained to perform it (one isn't around most nights) and doubts that the people "trained" would be successful.

 

[Jeff N]

That's just bad.
It's management and training.
I don't see it as a volunteer issue other than maybe you can't get people to volunteer? It's not like patrollers are well paid afaik.

Not necessarily a volunteer issue, but with paid patrol you can hire people that will commit to doing the job at a frequency that will keep the skills fresh. With a volunteer patrol, you may find yourself compromising on the time commitment in order to keep red jackets on the slopes, and the result may be an insufficiently trained patrol.

 

[Jeff N]

A few photos of the night in question. Camera was taking photos every minute. I thought I had shut it off but had actually turned it on after the crash.

Stuck Snowmobile.

Snowmobile gone, waiting on a sled to run up the chair.

Sled arrived. Note the yellow pad.

No more yellow pad. Note 1 patroller looking down and another one that moved downhill chasing the pad.

Still looking.

I guess I got transported down without the pad. I must be wrong about remembering waiting for it.

Full speed ahead on the bunny hill.

In the sled out front of patrol. You can see the ice all over my legs from lying in the snow on a snowy night.

Patrol HQ.

While obviously my experience is not representative of the level of training of volunteer patrol outfits, I can say after this experience that I feel more secure as a skier at places that have a paid patrol.

 

[Jeff N]

That is just completely unacceptable. Did they not have a chain break? In even moderately soft snow they would have to be lifting up on the horns to keep the tobbogan moving if the break was down and on a bunny hill. That's not to mention the rest of the issues. They should have a proficient sled puller comfortable in thpose conditions at the top of the hill for those reasons.

Can you tell from the photos? We were hauling ass, so I don't know about a chain brake.

 

[gwasson]

Can you tell from the photos? We were hauling ass, so I don't know about a chain brake.

Yes, in the picture where you talk about ice on your legs you can see the chain hanging between the handles, so they were not using the brake.

 

[pais alto]

Heh. The chain brake is tied in the up position, where it is utterly useless.

I know this makes me a bad person, but I found that story pretty funny,

 

[DanoT]

I have never heard of transporting a patient with a suspected leg fracture in a sitting position...just sayin.

 

[James]

Not necessarily a volunteer issue, but with paid patrol you can hire people that will commit to doing the job at a frequency that will keep the skills fresh. With a volunteer patrol, you may find yourself compromising on the time commitment in order to keep red jackets on the slopes, and the result may be an insufficiently trained patrol.

Well that's the theory but it's flawed. I don't exactly know how they keep people to high standards, but our volunteer patrol would never have such an issue. They keep people in line but they're really dedicated. You might actually get better care because some volunteers are MD's or otherwise involved in the medical profession.

The big difference would be avalanche control. There's no requirement for that and getting any proficiency in it would be very difficult.