Achieving proper alignment with 1/2" heel lifts in Lange RS 130 boots

[surfandski]

I recently returned from a week out in Colorado breaking in some new Lange RS 130 Wide boots (size 27.5 BSL 316). They are a very snug fit on my difficult feet/ankles but after a good bit of work we got the boots VERY close (though I think I’ll need another trip to this great fitter next season as the toes are still being pinched a bit width wise but I want to get in a few more days before doing more work on the boots). First off, I love these boots with their incredibly nice progressive flex (felt a bit soft but it was spring skiing so I bet they will be perfect under normal temps), torsional rigidity and my heels are more locked in than they’ve ever been in any other boot. They are very precise boots that are just getting better and better the more they break in!

Due to a severe ankle injury, I have 2 plates and 17 screws in my right ankle so I have severely limited dorsi-flexion in that ankle. Without heel lifts I’m able to flex into the sharp pain zone causing my joint to swell after an hour or so of skiing which entails eating ibuprofen like skittles to get thru the day. Given that, the fitter incorporated ½” wedges into both zeppas and I can now charge all day with virtually zero pain in the joint itself. One issue I’m experiencing is in a spring freeze/thaw cycle, getting out too early and skiing on coral reef ice is still brutal as it feels like the chattering ski is directing all that energy straight to the hardware in my tib/fib to where it feels like I’m skiing on a fractured ankle. This happened only in really icy conditions and once it softened up that pain was gone. I imagine the more I ski on this bad ankle the more the bone will be stimulated to become stronger and denser (I'm almost at 2 years since the surgery). However, since the RS wide soles are replaceable, one thing I’m wondering is if replacing the hard plastic ones with the RX 130 soles would help dampen some of that vibration? In my research on this forum I’ve also seen people install vibram soles on plug boots and wonder if this is an option for my case.

Too keep from writing a book I'll make another post with the meat of my questions......

 

[surfandski]

My main reason for posting is to better understand how that ½” heel lift affects the other variables pertaining to balance and alignment. Yes, I plan to have this conversation with my boot fitter when I get back to Colorado next year but I’d like to understand what other boot fitters are doing to compensate after installing such extreme heel lifts. They had a huge impact on reducing the pain in the joint and allowing me to ski hard all day long so now that we’ve got that issue resolved, what has to be done to get me back into alignment, or how do I know if any other changes are even necessary given my situation? As I write, keep in mind there are a lot of new variables being introduced at the same time so it could be my technique or unfamiliarity causing the issue vs the heel lifts themselves. I grew up skiing in Tahoe and was an advanced/expert skier prior to taking a 20+ year hiatus. This past season was my first season back so first time on shaped skis (plus I’m skiing much wider 80, 88 and 108 underfoot, than my early 90’s 63mm wide, 210cm long skis) and though it seems like it’s been a very easy adjustment, I realize I’m still relearning a lot of things. One thing about me is I’m very good at adapting to an improper setup (raced motocross for years) and making it work for me so I could adapt to the heel lifts and charge hard but I’d rather get things properly aligned and then charge even harder.

So I’m curious, when your heels are ½” higher inside the boot, what effect does that have on all the other variables and what else needs to be changed to bring everything else back into balance? Don’t get me wrong, in good conditions everything felt really good (I don't recall ever feeling in the back seat) and though I had not skied any expert terrain in 2 decades, I spent much of my first day hiking and skiing all over Peak 6 at Breck and then 2 days taking the snow-cats up and lapping the top of Loveland and it came back like riding a bike even on skis I’d never used before. However, when conditions weren’t ideal, something felt a little off and it mainly had to do with my tails.

I skied Breck, Copper and Loveland on 3 different sets of skis and the one common thing I noticed was that my tails tended to wash out in the turns both early in the morning on the icy conditions and later in the day when it got slushy. I did not have this problem at all in between when the snow consistency was good and there was good traction in which case my skis felt more balanced and I could really rail the turns at very high angles without losing the tails. In less than ideal conditions, it wasn’t so bad that I was close to falling but my tails would just not hold in the turns. I’m wondering if having my heels now ½” higher means I need to mount my bindings fore or aft to compensate or if something else needs to change such as gas pedaling the bindings.

One other thing I noticed only with my Line Supernatural 108 skis was that 3-4 times I pressured the outside ski and there was a slight delay before the shovel started coming around to where I caught myself leaning too far to the inside having expected the ski to already be moving across the fall line. This was my first time skiing these new skis and it only happened during the first hour but it was strange because the ski started to turn but then it’s as if they hesitated while pointing straight downhill so I had to catch myself with the inside ski. I didn’t notice this at all after the first hour on these new skis so it may have just been the ski, or my techinique since I’d never skied this wide of ski underfoot. I figured I’d mention it here just in case that too could have been caused by the heel lifts. This never happened on the other pairs of narrower skis I used that week and once I got used to the skis it never happened again so it’s probably not an issue but it sure was strange when it would happen out of the blue.

Thanks so much for all your help!

 

[cantunamunch]

However, since the RS wide soles are replaceable, one thing I’m wondering is if replacing the hard plastic ones with the RX 130 soles would help dampen some of that vibration?.

Minimally at best - you cannot fully decouple the clog from the binding. You're much better off tweaking the liner (like lining the tongue with Sorbothane or a gel) or moving to a damper plate and damper ski.

 

[surfandski]

Minimally at best - you cannot fully decouple the clog from the binding. You're much better off tweaking the liner (like lining the tongue with Sorbothane or a gel) or moving to a damper plate and damper ski.

Thanks for the post! I was skiing on Salomon X-Drive 8.8 and Line Supernatural 108 which are both rather damp skis. A damper plate is an interesting idea I hadn't thought of and depending upon thickness options, could help gas pedal my bindings if that is something I end up needing.

 

[surfandski]

@bud heishman (and any others please feel free to chime in)

Do you have any suggestions/comments regarding my alignment questions in my 2nd post when skiing with 1/2" heel lifts?

Thanks!

 

[BGreen]

I did a tib/fib a few years ago, so I understand what you are talking about. Vibration affects you differently. It's hard to say what the heel lift will do aside from opening the ankle angle. A half inch seems like a lot, but I'm sure your fitter had reasons. If you take the boot boards and insoles out of your boots and stand on them in front of a mirror, then add in the heel lifts, you should be able to see how they change geometry of your ankles.

For bigger hits a Booster strap can help. They decouple you from jarring impacts. It's a bit of a stretch, but if your liners pack out and you need to take up space in your boots, try roofing rubber (about 1.5 mm) or roofing rubber patches (about 3 mm) instead of bontex. The patches in particular will absorb some vibration. Also some custom insoles are foam based. DFP is one. That might help. I'm hoping to get some molded this week and can report back.

 

[bud heishman]

surfandski, the heel lift opens your ankle joint to allow you to have a bit more range of ankle motion. This adjustment is on the sagittal or fore/aft plane of your body of which there are three other parameters which can be adjusted to affect changes in your fore/aft balance. Changing the cuff forward lean also affects how closed or open the ankle joint is inside the boot but also affects the lower leg angle. The lower leg angle is actually quite important to good fore/aft balance. Simply adding heel lifts to open the ankle does not change the lower leg angle. I use a methodology which begins with assessing and adjusting internal boot angles for dorsiflexion needs before doing anything else on the sagittal plane. Once I establish the proper internal angle, I do not change the cuff angle to change lower leg angle, instead going under the boot sole to change the "Delta" angle which is created by the stand height differential between the toe and heel heights. The last parameter is the binding mount position on the ski which affects where we stand over the ski's sweet spot. This adjustment will change the skier stance as the body naturally adjust to find balance over the sweet spot.

So, if the heel lifts have helped your limited range of motion sufficiently and you feel balanced fore/aft, no other changes are needed. If you are having some issues, share them here and we can discuss options.

 

[surfandski]

surfandski, the heel lift opens your ankle joint to allow you to have a bit more range of ankle motion. This adjustment is on the sagittal or fore/aft plane of your body of which there are three other parameters which can be adjusted to affect changes in your fore/aft balance. Changing the cuff forward lean also affects how closed or open the ankle joint is inside the boot but also affects the lower leg angle. The lower leg angle is actually quite important to good fore/aft balance. Simply adding heel lifts to open the ankle does not change the lower leg angle. I use a methodology which begins with assessing and adjusting internal boot angles for dorsiflexion needs before doing anything else on the sagittal plane. Once I establish the proper internal angle, I do not change the cuff angle to change lower leg angle, instead going under the boot sole to change the "Delta" angle which is created by the stand height differential between the toe and heel heights. The last parameter is the binding mount position on the ski which affects where we stand over the ski's sweet spot. This adjustment will change the skier stance as the body naturally adjust to find balance over the sweet spot.

So, if the heel lifts have helped your limited range of motion sufficiently and you feel balanced fore/aft, no other changes are needed. If you are having some issues, share them here and we can discuss options.

Thank you very much for the post Bud! What was interesting is I expected the 1/2" heel lifts to feel strange or cause quad burn but it felt natural and solid from the get go even though I was on 3 different pairs of skis, and new boots, none of which I had ever skied before. Maybe it was the excitement that I was finally skiing without feeling like someone was sticking a knife in my ankle every time I pushed it or maybe it was all those days lapping KT-22 back in the early 90's paying dividends but I must have said 100 times, I should not be able to ski this stuff with this ankle. Other than the early morning chattering ice, it felt really good! Could a 1/4" or 3/8" heel lift have sufficed? Maybe. I never skied with any other heights but I did put in a 1/4" wedge at home and flexing in bindings mounted to plywood, I could still hit that sharp pain spot but that was also with the boots at room temperature.

The one issue I'm trying to wrap my head around was when the conditions weren't favorable, I struggled to keep my tails from washing out. With the freeze/thaw cycle we were experiencing those days it would start out rather icy, than soften up to really nice conditions and then get really slushy in the afternoon. In both the icey and slushy conditions I had to be very careful to not push it or my tails would wash out. It kind of felt like I was mounted too far forward because the shovels were locked in but the tails were not. During the several hours where the snow was in great condition I had no problem and could hold a carve at high angles. The edges weren't perfect but were sharp enough and one pair was a brand new pair of mine so the fact that all 3 skis did the same thing makes me think something was out of alignment. I was aware of which skis favored a more upright stance (which the RS130s should work well with) vs charging stance and experimented with both on all three skis but that didn't resolve the issue.

Could you explain what effect that 1/2" of heel lift would likely have fore and aft balance wise compared to skiing without lifts? I realize everyone is different but I'd assume that there are some "tendencies" where maybe mounting the binding back 1cm (I'm just throwing out random numbers) would weight the ski like someone without wedges skiing on the center line.

Also, would gas pedaling the toe binding help this or would that negate the work the heel lifts are doing in opening up the ankle joint? Are there some balance tests I can do at home to test out my balance with the heel lifts? Unfortunately, I'm in Florida so I won't be able to ski again until next year but I'll be in Colorado for 8-10 weeks so I'll get in 50 days next year and will have plenty of time to experiment.

Thanks so much!

 

[bud heishman]

Could you explain what effect that 1/2" of heel lift would likely have fore and aft balance wise compared to skiing without lifts? I realize everyone is different but I'd assume that there are some "tendencies" where maybe mounting the binding back 1cm (I'm just throwing out random numbers) would weight the ski like someone without wedges skiing on the center line.

Also, would gas pedaling the toe binding help this or would that negate the work the heel lifts are doing in opening up the ankle joint? Are there some balance tests I can do at home to test out my balance with the heel lifts? Unfortunately, I'm in Florida so I won't be able to ski again until next year but I'll be in Colorado for 8-10 weeks so I'll get in 50 days next year and will have plenty of time to experiment.

Thanks so much!

Our heels like to stay in contact with the ground to balance. With a fused ankle or very limited dorsiflexion ROM the heel tends to lift or lose contact with the ground (ie bottom of boot) By reducing the net forward lean angle of the boot by increasing the ramp angle and/or decreasing the forward lean of cuff, we can open the ankle joint to allow a bit more congruency or range of motion permitting the heel to contact the ground more effectively thus improving balance.

Regarding mount position, this will change where you stand over the ski's sweet spot. Your body position will adapt to this mounting position to find balance but you will notice a difference in stance to adapt to these changes. Example: a park n pipe ski which is center mounted will elicit a more vertical spine with lower and/or more aft hand and arm positon, moving the skier aft on the ski to remain over the ski's sweet spot which has moved aft in relationship to the binding position. Conversely, some powder skis have a much farther aft mount position, negating the need to "sit back" in powder. A more aft mounted ski on firmer snow requires a stance adjustment more forward to remain over the ski's sweet spot. This will also make the ski feel longer and more stable but take more effort or aggressiveness to initiate turns, whereas a forward mounted binding will initiate easier but not like to finish a turn as easily. It comes down to experimentation and finding your personal favorite, which could vary between ski models, snow conditions, discipline, etc.

Regarding gas pedaling, Gas Pedaling or reducing the "Delta" angle changes the lower leg angle without changing any internal angles of the boot. This "net" forward lean should be established first to reflect dorsiflexion needs before assessing or changing delta. In general I look for the knee to plumb over the end of the boot toe when clicked into the bindings and standing cuff neutral. This is a good starting point then testing dynamically on snow will zero into personal preference. If the lower leg angle is excessive, the skier will adapt by moving the hips aft and ski in a rather low flexed position and have difficulty pressing the shovels above the fall line. Conversely, a lower leg angle which is too vertical will cause the skier to compensate by breaking more at the waist to remain in balance. Only two places we can flex forward, the ankle and the hips. A lower leg angle which is too upright will also make the boot feel stiffer as it takes away leverage advantage over the boot relative to the skier's Center of Mass. Just like Goldie Locks and the three bears, we need to find the optimum temp (ie angle) to ski with the best balance. This is the detent position our equipment returns us to and should match where our bodies prefer to be to optimize balance. When we get it right we will see the skier from the side view presents parallel angles between the lower legs and the spine with flexion extension moving with these two in a parallel relationship. You should also feel ease in maintaining shin/tongue contact and the ability to pressure the front of the ski before the fall line. This optimum position will also optimize the ability to ski on one ski and effectively pressure the little toe side of the shovel.

Properly assessing and adjusting the Sagittal plane is, in the words of our president, HUGE! Get it right and feel like a rock star, miss it and finding balance is challenged and fatiguing.

 

[surfandski]

Thanks for that explanation Bud. I've been waiting to respond as I've been up at our NC home with my boots at my FL home and I really wanted to experiment a little before responding. I just spent a little time in my boots trying a few random things and would be very open to any other suggestions for testing my balance unless it sounds like things are rather good in their current state.

First I stood balancing on one boot at a time and went back and for between that leg fully extended straight (hips forward) to knee bent, hips lower with boot flexed to where knee goes ahead of the toes of my boot. I did this several times and felt very balanced on each foot never feeling like I was going to fall forward when my leg was straight or bent. I did this same exercise without boot on (ie, no heel lift) and didn't feel any loss of balance either way. I ride a lot of motocross and MTB where I spend a good bit of time balancing on the balls of meet feet to make minute balance adjustments by moving my feet around on the foot begs (especially in deep ruts where balance is so critical) using the inside or outside of my boot so it's natural for me to make tiny adjustments when skiing by pressing down more with my big toe vs little toe depending upon which edge I'm trying to effect. As I said in a previous post, I'm pretty good at adapting to and self correcting out of balance situations so I feel really good with, or without, heel lifts but I don't want to develop a bad habit by compensating for an out of balance position if I really should change something mechanically.

I then clicked into a pair of skis with Rossi/Look bindings and using a level my knee is about .75" away from the toe of my shell (outer toe section of boot) when cuff neutral and with a little forward pressure on the shins I'm right about at the end of the shell over my toes. I don't have all of my skis here to measure but this particular binding's heel is only about 2mm higher than the toe piece so I'm wondering if it sounds like this combo of low binding delta + 1/2" heel lifts sounds ok or if a tweak might be in order? My BSL is 316 (27.5 shell) so I don't have tiny feet ramped up 1/2".

I kind of now wish I had demo bindings on all my skis so I could experiment since they vary in mount position. My quiver for next year will consist of Salomon X-drive 8.0 (80mm which I can adjust binding position on), Fischer Motive 86 TI (fixed position), Line Supernatural 108 (fixed position) and Blizzard Spur 125 (fixed position mounted fairly far back).

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[surfandski]

Also, I can tell that my ankle joint is slowly deteriorating as I continue to live life skiing, MTB, Motocross, hiking, etc so I already have days where I start wondering about the pros and cons of fusing the ankle. I'm hopefully still several years out on that but could any of you share a little about what will likely change once that right ankle is fused? Will I likely still be able to use these snug but awesome RS 130 boots or will I likely want something stiffer so that my healthy left ankle isn't flexing much more than the fused right? I know some liners increase the flex so maybe that could work but I wonder if I could get a lace up liner into the boot once the ankle is fused. Right now, getting in and out is no big deal as long as the boots aren't frozen.

Should having the 1/2" heel lifts open the ankle enough that I won't notice a HUGE difference compared to now? The reason I ask is because if my skiing is really going to suffer than I'll put it off as long as I can and just endure the pain the rest of the year so that I can continue to ski at my level. If it won't make a HUGE impact than I'd be tempted to do the fusion sooner than later.

Thanks!

 

[surfandski]

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