Women's Halfpipe - Elizabeth Swaney

[Jacob]

I think if you join a foreign team for sport you should give up your USA citizenship.

In the same way that I think if you come to the USA from Mexico and become US citizen, you should NOT be rooting for the Mexico national team when it plays the US national team (soccer).

As someone who was born and raised in the US but has spent the last 12 years living in the UK, I can tell you that you seriously underestimate how difficult it is to give up your national identity.

That's especially true when, even if you do change your citizenship, the locals will still refer to you as being from whichever country you emigrated from. Even if you don't look different, you'll probably sound different for the rest of your life. And that alone is enough for people to refer to you as an outsider.

And being cast as an outsider by the people you live with, especially if it's combined with resentment toward outsiders, is enough to push you back to identifying with your native country, even if you have no plans of ever moving back.

 

[Tricia]

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I'm not sure what the answer is.
We've had tons of discussion about athletes who are long in the tooth taking spots on the USST, when a young athlete with potential is left to find her/his own way.

There is probably a better way to set this stuff up, and make sure the athletes who compete are those who deserve it, but....

 

[Eleeski]

On a different thread we were debating if nationalism in the Olympics was a good thing. This seems like the other extreme where even a DNA test isn't good enough.

Let the athletes compete regardless of how they got here. As long as nobody is getting hurt or displaced, great.

You don't have to root for someone that you feel isn't representing properly - but fans have no bearing on the outcome. Just skill (and maybe a little luck).

We live in a global world. When the athlete from the space habitat who trains at 2Gs comes back to Earth to compete, then the issue might be more relevant. Fortunately those funny guys from Roswell are too busy probing to play sports - so far.

Eric

 

[Fishbowl]

The first athlete I remember blatantly changing citizenship to compete in the Olympics was the middle distance runner Zola Budd. As a native born South African, banned from international competition, she flipped over to Great Brittan for the 84 games, and then back to South Africa for the 92 games when the ban was lifted.

I think this is much more prevelant than we know, and speaks to a lack of integrity when it comes to competing for national pride. Still, if the Olympics is the pinacle of your sporting career, I don’t blame people for finding a way to get there, even if it means utilizing Flags of Convenience.

 

[fatbob]

Point of order for all those frothing at the mouth at the "Hungarian " Snowboard girl - she's a skier, one of your own. Don't get confused by the Czech snowboarder who handed it to Vonn et al in the Super G.

Or the Park CIty "Brit" who got us a bronze in ski slopestyle. Her British father is apparently on the record as saying she wouldn't have hacked it in a USST programme as she isn't loud and self promoting enough. Flag of convenience justified in her case by her performance no? “She grew up on Ribena and Marmite.”

 

[SkiSchoolPros]

Why is it right to claim a country you never lived in just to go to Olympics?

If you can’t make team in Home country that’s on you. There are too many Americans skiing and participating for other countries. It’s ridiculous. Maybe if you join a foreign team for sport your should be required to move there for a decade.

Dutch born/raised Ted-Jan Bloemen is happy you are not making the rules...he didn't make the uber-competitive Netherlands Speed Skating team for the 2014 Olympics, moved to Canada that summer, set a world record in 2015 and won a gold and silver for Canada in Pyeongchang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted-Jan_Bloemen

As others have mentioned:
1. It takes a lot of $ to get to the Olympics for most medal contenders and non-contenders.
2. While ability is usually important, there can be politics in deciding who makes national teams.
3. Many athletes flag shop and/or live/train/compete outside their home country
4. Individual countries can set their own standard for Olympic Qualification. i.e. New Zealand only sent 2 athlete's to the women's halfpipe because, in addition the FIS eligibility requirements, they require their athletes to have at least 1 or 2 top 12 finishes.

Most USA Winter Olympic athletes come from well off families, or families that were willing to make lots of financial sacrifices to allow their kids to train and compete. While over 1/3 of Austrians and Swiss ski, the reason why less than 5% of Americans ski is partly financial.

 

[Ohioskier]

@SkiSchoolPros you mentioned one athlete that did not make team and moved to another country to compete. That is a completely different story than someone living in California and never leaving but competing for Venezuela and Hungary.

If someone physically moves for opportunities and makes a new home that’s different than someone never moving and racing for some random nation.

 

[at_nyc]

I think if you join a foreign team for sport you should give up your USA citizenship.

In the same way that I think if you come to the USA from Mexico and become US citizen, you should NOT be rooting for the Mexico national team when it plays the US national team (soccer).

As someone who was born and raised in the US but has spent the last 12 years living in the UK, I can tell you that you seriously underestimate how difficult it is to give up your national identity

You need to give up your US citizenship!

How dare you live NOT in the country you were born with? Even if you don't have anything against your birth country, what are they offering you in UK for you to emigrate?

Do you root for the US team when it plays England?

 

[Ohioskier]

You need to give up your US citizenship!

How dare you live NOT in the country you were born with? Even if you don't have anything against your birth country, what are they offering you in UK for you to emigrate?

Do you root for the US team when it plays England?

To be fair I think he was speaking of those living in America claiming other nationalities to make the Olympics when never living there.

 

[SkiSchoolPros]

@SkiSchoolPros you mentioned one athlete that did not make team and moved to another country to compete. That is a completely different story than someone living in California and never leaving but competing for Venezuela and Hungary.

If someone physically moves for opportunities and makes a new home that’s different than someone never moving and racing for some random nation.

I 100% agree with you, but you mentioned requiring a decade...Bloemen was almost 28 when he moved to Canada...if you required him to live there for a decade before competing for Canada, he wouldn't have been eligible to compete at the Olympics until 2026 (when he would be 39). No doubt that Swaney worked the system, but the outcome may not have been different if you required her to live in Hungry for a short period of time.

 

[Ohioskier]

I 100% agree with you, but you mentioned requiring a decade...Bloemen was almost 28 when he moved to Canada...if you required him to live there for a decade before competing for Canada, he wouldn't have been eligible to compete at the Olympics until 2026 (when he would be 39). No doubt that Swaney worked the system, but the outcome may not have been different if you required her to live in Hungry for a short period of time.

My saying move there for a decade was more in just the principle she never lived in Hungary or Venezuela and if she had to she wouldn’t. So basically go take your Harvard masters and see what economics are there for a decade. Now if she failed with Venezuela thing and then moved to Hungary for next few years that would be different.

I am just a proud American and grateful for the opportunities that I’ve had and I feel we all have. The last twenty years has divided us but everyone still has opportunities that aren’t elsewhere from sports to career goals. Republicans and democrats all need to sit back and remember that.

 

[Fishbowl]

I wonder if the time has come to allow athletes to compete in the Olympics free of nationality? There is already a “refugee” and an “athletes from Russia” team, why not an Olympic “Independents” team based solely on performance qualification. This would allow quota athletes to compete, as well as those who fall under international bans and boycotts, or even those just don’t fit in with their country’s governing body.

 

[fatbob]

My saying move there for a decade was more in just the principle she never lived in Hungary or Venezuela and if she had to she wouldn’t. So basically go take your Harvard masters and see what economics are there for a decade. Now if she failed with Venezuela thing and then moved to Hungary for next few years that would be different.

Hungary isn't some tinpot country living on scraps. Ever heard of the Austro Hungarian Empire, the Danube, Puskas and the Mighty Magyars.

The architecture in Budapest alone puts all of the US to shame. Not forgetting of course 1956 revolution against Soviet control and the possible role of the CIA in failing to deliver on promises of NATO support.

 

[fatbob]

How dare you live NOT in the country you were born with? Even if you don't have anything against your birth country, what are they offering you in UK for you to emigrate?

I might be wrong but I believe he gets to live in the architectural and cultural jewel of all of Europe that is Luton. That is a reward mere money or fame cannot buy.

 

[Ohioskier]

Hungary isn't some tinpot country living on scraps. Ever heard of the Austro Hungarian Empire, the Danube, Puskas and the Mighty Magyars.

The architecture in Budapest alone puts all of the US to shame. Not forgetting of course 1956 revolution against Soviet control and the possible role of the CIA in failing to deliver on promises of NATO support.

I was in no way referencing Hungary as a bad country. I know nothing about it. I was referring to her having a Harvard masters degree and living in a booming area of this country. She made 0 sacrifices of moving to a country that she is carrying the flag of. So if you want to compete for Hungary go live there and give up your life, job and friends as sacrifice. There is a sacrifice made when you relocate even if its a great place.

 

[Ohioskier]

@fatbob no mentions of the beautiful country and towns of Venezuela?

 

[fatbob]

Venezuela is a beautiful country - Angel Falls, Roraima, Merida, beaches and [everyday objectification alert] the women are knockouts. But Chavez rather cost the country dear.

 

[Karen_skier2.0]

I guess I'm in the minority that thinks this sort of just stinks. Its a bit insulting to the other competitors and the spirit of the games to me when someone who can self-fund trips to China to ski in qualifying events with limited talent (and again performing nothing more than straight errors) and then exploits ancestry to compete for a country she's never lived in.

The idea that it's because there is a lack of depth of talent is hogwash. Nor does it seem relevant to me whether people on a board that generally lacks freestylers can ski a superpipe -- this ain't Newschoolers. There are lots of women more capable of skiing a superpipe than this. But they don't have the funding beyond an already expensive hobby to travel the world to exploit loopholes.

For the record -- I'd have no issue at all if we were talking about a person from Hungry who qualified legit and then performed like this. I think it is great when people push their own limits and earn the right to represent their country. Which is why I think the Eddie the Eagle and Jamaican bobsled teams are not comparable. Its that it's a tech-recruiter from the Bay Area who played the loopholes game because she could afford to.

Is she within the rules? Sure.

Does it represent the spirit of the games when you can effectively pay to play? Not to me.

While she did it within the rules, I wasn't thrilled about it either. When there are only a maximum of 4 per country (i.e. USA), I would feel bad for the fifth. (Note: FIS sets the quotas so it may be different for other countries and I'm being lazy not to look it up.)

I have mixed feelings on showing ancestry to determine which country you can compete for, but that's a whole different issue. So, did she give up her US citizenship to compete for Hungary? If she had actually been born in Hungary, I might feel different about the situation.

FIS has already come forward to say that the rules are imperfect and will be looking how to change the system. I feel that their biggest sticking point will be equity between the mens and ladies field. It took a long time for women to get the same number of competitive slots as men in World Cup and the Olympics. If the only "fix" that the FIS comes up with is providing less slots for female, then I would say not to change anything.

 

[Karen_skier2.0]

She made it there, within the rules, she didn't cheat, she didn't take someone elses spot. Remember, a snowboarder who started 26th just won GOLD in the SuperG. Please explain exactly where the line is drawn. Hell, she got above the lip in a superpipe...I would venture to say the vast majority of the people here could not...superpipes are damn big...the coping is at 22', kudos to her.

Comparing apples to oranges. Super G has 81 athletes start. She was already in the top third of the field.

 

[Analisa]

Regardless of her "legitimacy" - I think this could do good things for women's skiing in the long term by shining a spotlight on how low the participation rate is and how much opportunity there is. I hope some parents decide to take their daughters for some laps in the pipe or try out a freeride development team. Elizabeth Swaney's ranked 34th in the world. It wouldn't take an insane amount of commitment to be able to build more skills than that and unlock some pretty neat opportunities. I hope it raises the bar for women's halfpipe over time.

I'm glad these are the conversations we're having about women's skiing. About a decade ago, the conversation was whether women were medically fit to ski jump, because, lady bits. And that was from the president of the International Ski Federation. We absolutely should expect more out of Olympic level athletes - which means getting more girls airborne and developing a cohort of 30+ women who can actually do some tricks. In order to do so, I think it'll challenge the way we think of women's and girls' skiing. I know I have no shortage of company as a female skier that's embraced speed and steeps and metal ski construction with a long turn radius - but is really still at the beginner stage in terms of getting sendy. We just didn't spend time daring each other to hit kickers as kids like my guy friends did. And Liz Swaney's what we have to show for it.