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Who decided that 12degree forward lean should be the industry standard anyway?

Don'tfit

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If 12deg forward lean does not work best overall for you what are doing if you are not of a height and weight for a top tier race bred boot?

Why do manufactures treat lighter touch skiers with such a dumb down mentality in terms of adjustable features? Adding a spoiler does not ski the same as a cuff a couple of degrees stronger in forward lean to begin with.
 
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TS
D

Don'tfit

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I don't believe that's true at all. Not all are created the same. Just like skis.
 

RuleMiHa

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If 12deg forward lean does not work best overall for you what are doing if you are not of a height and weight for a top tier race bred boot?

Why do manufactures treat lighter touch skiers with such a dumb down mentality in terms of adjustable features? Adding a spoiler does not ski the same as a cuff a couple of degrees stronger in forward lean to begin with.
There are a whole bunch of things including forward lean that I think would benefit by being adjustable, and boy do I have strong feelings on the subject after years of trial and error. However, I do understand the 12* issue. They're more upright, therefore easier to walk in, so I'm sure manufactures think skiers not ready for near race boots like the Head Raptor (which is what I wear with 16*forward lean) prefer comfort.
 

James

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Currently they're obsessed with upright.
But, what boot are you talking about? Certainly they are not all 12 degrees.
And weight has nothing to do with forward lean needs.
 

François Pugh

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If 12deg forward lean does not work best overall for you what are doing if you are not of a height and weight for a top tier race bred boot?

Why do manufactures treat lighter touch skiers with such a dumb down mentality in terms of adjustable features? Adding a spoiler does not ski the same as a cuff a couple of degrees stronger in forward lean to begin with.
Probably the same idiot who decided skiing in a tuck outside of a closed race course was grounds for having your pass pulled. ogwink
My boots from many years ago had adjustable forward lean and several other adjustments (that became cast in place after the liners were foamed).
 

RuleMiHa

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There is no reason why a lighter skier needs more forward lean angle.

The femur length, cog location, yes

And weight has nothing to do with forward lean needs.

If you think about vectors of force, more of a skiers body weight is acting on a cuff with a greater forward lean (because larger horizontal vector, smaller vertical vector) so while technically there is nothing about being a lighter skier that necessitates greater forward lean some might have more success in bending a boot if there is greater forward lean. I think, but can't be completely sure without pulling out my protractor and physics textbook, which I refuse to do.

Ouch, that made my head hurt!
 

crgildart

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Less forward lean for park and general all mountain.. more forward lean for steeps and racing. However, I suspect the real reason most mainstream boots have less aggressive forward lean is because that is more comfortable to stand in and walk around in.... therefore more people will like the feel of them trying them on in the shop who don't know that they'll want more forward lean for actually skiing in the boots.

I went to less aggressive boots when started skiing greens and easy blues with my young kids. Just too exhausting standing around in race boots not actually skiing hard... but for "skiing" they feel great.. Solution.. quiver of different types of boots, all with the same BSL..
 

David Chaus

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Depends upon the individual and the range of dorsiflexion/plantar flexion they have. If my boot has too much forward lean, I have less range of flexion available to me. Add some binding delta and I’m also sitting in the back seat to compensate for being pitched forward.
 

Rod9301

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Depends upon the individual and the range of dorsiflexion/plantar flexion they have. If my boot has too much forward lean, I have less range of flexion available to me. Add some binding delta and I’m also sitting in the back seat to compensate for being pitched forward.
Exactly
 

Rod9301

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Less forward lean for park and general all mountain.. more forward lean for steeps and racing. However, I suspect the real reason most mainstream boots have less aggressive forward lean is because that is more comfortable to stand in and walk around in.... therefore more people will like the feel of them trying them on in the shop who don't know that they'll want more forward lean for actually skiing in the boots.

I went to less aggressive boots when started skiing greens and easy blues with my young kids. Just too exhausting standing around in race boots not actually skiing hard... but for "skiing" they feel great.. Solution.. quiver of different types of boots, all with the same BSL..
There is no reason skiing steeps require more forward lean.

I ski steep couloirs regularly, 45 degrees and steeper, and I ski a Lange boot, about 12 degrees.

It works great, and it lets me pressure the front of the ski and get out of the back seat.

It's also a lot less effort on the quads.

Walking has nothing to do with it.

But it depends on your bike proportions.
Lemaster has a great test that tells you if you have the correct lean angle for you. Read that and you will see.
 

jmeb

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Another variable not getting play in this thread -- ski design has a big impact on appropriate forward lean.

A race ski with full camber, and a mount -10cm from true center demands a very different stance to utilize the ski than a full rocker, -5cm from true center, pow ski. Not to mention variables like location of sidecut, flex profiles etc.
 

James

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If you think about vectors of force, more of a skiers body weight is acting on a cuff with a greater forward lean (because larger horizontal vector, smaller vertical vector) so while technically there is nothing about being a lighter skier that necessitates greater forward lean some might have more success in bending a boot if there is greater forward lean.

If you're relying on "bending" the boot you're already screwed.

Yes, soft boots will let you overcome too little forward lean by mashing it. A stiff boot you can't. But if the stiff boot is set up properly it's good.
 

Slim

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There is no reason skiing steeps require more forward lean.


But it depends on your bike proportions.
Lemaster has a great test that tells you if you have the correct lean angle for you. Read that and you will see.

I assume you mean body proportions?

Do you have a link to that test? Sounds interesting. I have adjustable lean boots and have tried to see which setting is best for me, but still not sure, since technique comes into it a lot.
 

RuleMiHa

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If you're relying on "bending" the boot you're already screwed.

Yes, soft boots will let you overcome too little forward lean by mashing it. A stiff boot you can't. But if the stiff boot is set up properly it's good.
That's another discussion entirely :Dand I actually am in your camp on this one, but there are many people who ski and have boots set in such a way that bending it is a necessity and part of their method of skiing.
 

Philpug

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This is a thread I would like to see an @otto chime in to and get his opinion.
 

markojp

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Yes, ski design has changed. Tip/fib length is also important... 'long' folks may be way out over their toes in a boot with too much forward lean, and yes, too upright for particular narratives and physiologies can certainly be a problem, but if we think for a moment about the truly average participant, we're talking 5-10 days per season, a happy skill set plateau, and a desire to have a boot that fit's with minimal fuss. It's no big deal for people here on the forum to go back 2-3 times and tweek a boot/stance/alignment with their boot person. For a 7 day athletic skier, you've trashed half his/her season. Most people prefer to cruise upright most of the day and venture into steep terrain on a basis by and large limited by ski fitness rather than actual ability. Upright boots allow most rec skiers to ski more skeletally... it's just easier. All that in mind, what works for each of us who are pretty passionate about optimizing our experience will beg to be questioned, evaluated, and sorted. That a 12 degree boot might not be the solution isn't really the question. What we're looking for is proper fore/aft alignment. Make the appropriate changes as needed and fogetaboutit. ogsmile
 

pchewn

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I had these San Marco Super-Pro (Green Machine) adjustable forward lean, adjustable cant boots in 1974. The adjustment mechanisms broke, the hinge broke, they only lasted one season. When I buy boots today I go for fit and sturdiness. I don't want fancy adjustable gizmos that are going to break. I don't want ski/walk mode -- that's what shoes are for. I just want boots that are comfortable (enough), fit, and durable.

I can't believe those boots were $175 in 1974 .... That's $875 in 2017 dollars!

https://www.pugski.com/attachments/ski-oct-1974-san-marco-jpg.9454/
 

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