When skis are too stiff...

[Uncle-A]

I demoed the Super Joys last season and HAD to have a pair for "firm groomer days" although I also skied them in slush and liked them there, too. Also skied the Total Joys and could have owned a pair of those, also LOL. But, they overlap with my Black Pearls too much.

Have they reduced the Joy line to two skis or do they still have the three? In the 2018 Skis thread it only talks about two JOY skis.

 

[AmyPJ]

Have they reduced the Joy line to two skis or do they still have the three? In the 2018 Skis thread it only talks about two JOY skis.

I thought there were 4 or 5?
Super Joy, Total Joy, Wild Joy, Great Joy, Big Joy, Oh and there's the Absolut Joy in there, too. Oh, and the Pure Joy. Not sure if any of those have been eliminated for 2018 or not.

Looks like maybe the Big Joy has been dropped?
https://shop-us.head.com/us-US/catalogsearch/result/?q=joy

 

[Uncle-A]

I thought there were 4 or 5?
Super Joy, Total Joy, Wild Joy, Great Joy, Big Joy, Oh and there's the Absolut Joy in there, too. Oh, and the Pure Joy. Not sure if any of those have been eliminated for 2018 or not.

Looks like maybe the Big Joy has been dropped?
https://shop-us.head.com/us-US/catalogsearch/result/?q=joy

Thanks, I did not think that they had that many. The Head Joy series was what I recommended to a friend and thinking about them for my daughter.

 

[Wendy]

I just got my wife a pair of Black Crows Captis Birdie (90mm width). They are perfect for someone your size. The flex is nice and even and soft enough for someone in the 100-115 lb range. Its best to look not just at reviews online but try to get a feel of the ski in the store and of course its best to demo.

My Head Monster 88's are VERY stiff (184 cm length) but they feel great under my feet and I can bend them into shorter turn radii no problem. But Im 6-2, 185 lb and use 130 flex boots. Same with my Moment Deathwish 190cm (112mm wide) skis. They are not as stiff but far from soft and are large and pretty burly. With my previous boot (which were softer at 100) I could manage them but was hitting the limit of the flex in the boots regularly. With my newer, stiffer boots I can control them better, quicker and just make them do whatever I want, much easier.

I had no trouble with my Kenjas, but I did notice that I tired more easily skiing all day on them. And the 170’s were a tad too short. I replaced them with the unisex Black Crows Captis in a 178. They indeed have a slightly softer, more uniform flex than the Kenjas.

 

[Large Squirrel]

I do not want to start a firestorm but at 5' 1" and 95 LBS why not buy a High Performance Junior Ski???

she did go down this route before. we bought her a pair of fischer jr rc-4 gs skis for the racing clinic we attend. she really liked those. she had two pair of jr twin tip skis....a kastle and a line. both didn't work out. @tinymoose, did i leave anything out??

 

[Philpug]

I had no trouble with my Kenjas, but I did notice that I tired more easily skiing all day on them. And the 170’s were a tad too short. I replaced them with the unisex Black Crows Captis in a 178. They indeed have a slightly softer, more uniform flex than the Kenjas.

DING DING DING. This is one of the first things look for in a ski is how balanced the flex is, especially in the mid body. This is one of the things that kept people coming back to the original Nordica Enforcer, it was a very balanced flex. Theres are times when we refer to a ski being "blocky", that is refering to the ski not bending in the middle of the ski.

 

[Dakine]

My friend, Andrea Sendlhofer, ex Austrian national Team, always coached me to ski on the softest skis I could without overloading.
It takes more technique but is faster when you don't have to do contortions to bend the ski at initiation.
She is sponsored by Fisher and really likes the Curv line for soft, balanced flex.
Of course, she lives in the Austrian alps and is still a monster.

 

[Large Squirrel]

My friend, Andrea Sendlhofer, ex Austrian national Team, always coached me to ski on the softest skis I could without overloading.
It takes more technique but is faster when you don't have to do contortions to bend the ski at initiation...
View attachment 32998

^^ THIS! being able to utilize the entire ski length, the way it is designed to flex and interact with the ground surface, i think is something that too often gets overlooked.

 

[Rod9301]

My friend, Andrea Sendlhofer, ex Austrian national Team, always coached me to ski on the softest skis I could without overloading.
It takes more technique but is faster when you don't have to do contortions to bend the ski at initiation.
She is sponsored by Fisher and really likes the Curv line for soft, balanced flex.
Of course, she lives in the Austrian alps and is still a monster.
View attachment 32998

There is no way to bend a ski at initiation.
In the first quarter of the turn you set the edge angle, but there is no pressure.

 

[Dakine]

There is no way to bend a ski at initiation.
In the first quarter of the turn you set the edge angle, but there is no pressure.

Semantics!
You are not turning in a pure carve if the ski isn't decambered.
To me, that is initiation, when you start to turn.
Before that, you are just setting up the possibility of turning.
One big problem with PSIA is they use way too much undefined jargon in their rhetoric.
And they change it every few years.
I think they do it just to confuse folks and sell lessons.

 

[tinymoose]

she did go down this route before. we bought her a pair of fischer jr rc-4 gs skis for the racing clinic we attend. she really liked those. she had two pair of jr twin tip skis....a kastle and a line. both didn't work out. @tinymoose, did i leave anything out??

Well, those Kastles never even got mounted and went back b/c symmetrical so... but yeah, I didn't care for the Lines at all and the turn radius on the Fischer Jr. GS skis was too big for slalom for race clinic. Otherwise really loved the Fischer's! (Minus the weight of carrying them)

I will add, I'm certainly not opposed to owning more junior skis at some point in the future.

 

[Large Squirrel]

There is no way to bend a ski at initiation.
In the first quarter of the turn you set the edge angle, but there is no pressure.

i'm no ski instructor, but i am an engineer...so i just laugh every time i see comments like this! if you set the new edge at the beginning of the new turn, you are still moving with some angular velocity along arced path set by that new edge, then by definition there must be some pressure exerted (provided the ski holds the edge and doesn't slip/chatter/etc). simple physics. so then, if you are not able to properly flex a ski you can't properly set the ski at initiation.

Semantics!
You are not turning in a pure carve if the ski isn't decambered.
To me, that is initiation, when you start to turn.
Before that, you are just setting up the possibility of turning.
One big problem with PSIA is they use way too much undefined jargon in their rhetoric.
And they change it every few years.
I think they do it just to confuse folks and sell lessons.

bingo.

 

[Rod9301]

i'm no ski instructor, but i am an engineer...so i just laugh every time i see comments like this! if you set the new edge at the beginning of the new turn, you are still moving with some angular velocity along arced path set by that new edge, then by definition there must be some pressure exerted (provided the ski holds the edge and doesn't slip/chatter/etc). simple physics. so then, if you are not able to properly flex a ski you can't properly set the ski at initiation.



bingo.

You're right, there is some minimal pressure, but very little compared to what's coming later in the turn. I don't think it's enough to bend the ski though. Look at some pictures of racers before the fall line.

 

[François Pugh]

At initiation, that is, right after you leave the railroad tracks left by the left edges and start riding the tracks left by the right edges, the ski isn't bent much, and doesn't take much to bend it. As you increase the edge angle and tighten the turn going forwards from there, a softer ski will seem to want to dive into that turn, a stiff ski, unless you are carrying some speed, will resist and require more effort. On the other hand if you are carrying speed and turning hard on hard snow, the resistance is helpful in distributing the load. Horses for courses.

One thing that may have been overlooked in all the praise of the new softer longitudinal flex, but still stiff in torsion skis, is that if you find yourself in trouble and have come to expect grip, and think you can pull yourself out of the fire with a heavily loaded outside ski tip bent into just the right curve, you might just find that that tip unexpectedly bends much more than anticipated. It just might bend enough that the angle it's now trying to pull you at exceeds the available grip. Where as your old-school stiff ski would not bend that far and pull you out just fine.

 

[tinymoose]

I'm gonna try to find some of the Head Joy skis to demo this year, along with the new and improved Yumi just out of curiosity. Don't really need need new skis at the moment, but always good to do some research in advance. All the research.

 

[KingGrump]

Don't really need need new skis at the moment, but always good to do some research in advance.

We almost never need another pair of ski.

Do we want?

 

[neonorchid]

I'm gonna try to find some of the Head Joy skis to demo this year, along with the new and improved Yumi just out of curiosity. Don't really need need new skis at the moment, but always good to do some research in advance. All the research.

@tinymoose, try Idlewild Ski Shop by ELK Mountain. They do half and full day rentals of "high" performance demo skis, i.e., the desirable new crop which includes Head. However, for your length, I'd suggest calling ahead.
http://www.idlewildskishop.com/

 

[kimberlin]

@tinymoose . You and I are the same size. I know we like different skis, and you prefer shorter lengths. I also had a Kenja for a year, loved the stability but sold for all the reasons you've mentioned.

You may genuinely love one of the Joy skis. However, I have tried two of the models in the shorter/medium lengths and really disliked them. On each of the two narrow-waisted models that I skiied, my first impression was "these are incredibly light, easy to turn." In my case I believe it was exactly that characteristic that made me decide against the Joys. I felt every bump in the road . The super light quality was working against me, making the ski feel stiff and somewhat unmanageable on the hard snow.

Perhaps I am one of the few that do not like these skis, but I believe my weight was not working in my favor here. Or maybe I just can't ski well enough to find the love. I didn't like three versions of the Black Pearl either, but I can't say exactly why , have never quite figured that one out.

 

[tinymoose]

@tinymoose .
Perhaps I am one of the few that do not like these skis, but I believe my weight was not working in my favor here. Or maybe I just can't ski well enough to find the love. I didn't like three versions of the Black Pearl either, but I can't say exactly why , have never quite figured that one out.

See! We have something in common. I also hated the Black Pearls!

Curious what skis you're on now?

 

[kimberlin]

See! We have something in common. I also hated the Black Pearls!

Curious what skis you're on now?

@tinymoose :
Nordica Belle to Belle 78 @ 154
Kicker Filibuster 73 @ 155
Renoun Z-77 77 @ 157 (have not tried these yet).