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What's better? A clinic or one-off lessons?

laine

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So I've been thinking about where to get my pass next year - Sugar Bowl, Squaw/Alpine, or some combination of both. And one of the things I want to focus on next season is steeps/mogul improvement.

A friend did the Squaw Women's Clinic last year and loved it.
http://squawalpine.com/skiing-riding/women-winter-camp

Another friend (who has the Squaw/Alpine pass) is considering getting the Alpine unlimited group lessons.
http://squawalpine.com/skiing-riding/alpine-unlimited-lessons

What do you think is a more effective way to really improve? Concentrated teaching - or spread out across the season?

thanks.
 

luliski

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Good question. I think spread out across the season-provided you could make it to Alpine at least weekly. That would give you time to practice and then have someone check you. Even better if you could somehow have the same instructor all season. For some reason I can't think of many mogul runs at Alpine, though (other than Scotty's Beam off Lakeview chair).
 

markojp

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Tough one... a 2-3 day clinic/camp is great, and you'd have a few things to focus on going forward. Knowing what you don't know is REALLY key to getting things sorted out over time. A great camp will help your skiing AND let you know what you need to work on. The unlimited group lessons are probably a mixed case, but can also work. The right instructor can really be a god send, but you might not always click with who they've assigned to the group lesson pool. If you're an advances skier, most likely you'll be getting a higher cert and/or more experienced instructor. Now here's one to think about... if you have 2-4 friendly, good humored buds that you enjoy skiing with and are roughly the same ability, have similar outcome ambitions, etc... you'll have a great, instant 'core' group to show up to line up with. Instructors will beg to be assigned to you. Fun and commaraderie is pretty much the show. The group that apre's together, goes and grows together.

ogsmile

(If it's a question of a one day clinic vs. a season of weekly drop ins, go for the latter.)
 

PTskier

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Impossible to reply. The quality of the instructor is everything. Their Level means little. The understanding of skiing and understanding of teaching means a lot. Too many instructors have a high quotient of natural ability and little understanding of teaching the fundamentals to we who were born with little natural ability but with a big passion for skiing.

I'd suggest the clinic if it is very well done. It is good to be with other students, see what they do right and how they do it. And, see what they do wrong, and decide that you'll never do that. The clinic also may give time to rest physically and mentally. I kind'a shy away from the all woman marketing thing. I've had great woman coaches, not because they were women, but because they were great coaches. And, I've had great male coaches. I've coached women and men (I'm a guy), and it went very well because I gave concurrent individual lessons to each person in the group. Each got what they needed. A woman won't give you a better lesson than an equally good man. If you want a friend, get a dog. If you want a great lesson, get a great coach. I've had truly mediocre coaches, both women and men, Level 3, because they were natural athletes who didn't understand that they needed to know about how the ski engages with the snow and didn't know much about how to teach to get us to engage the ski into the snow.

An advantage of the unlimited lesson deal, a big advantage, is your ability to fire your instructor. Come back another day for a better instructor. Or change groups before you go out if you're with an ineffective instructor.

Steeps---How do you engage the front half of the inside edge of your outside ski into the snow at the very beginning of the turn? The first 1/3rd of the turn, before the ski reaches the fall line? That is what you need to learn. That part of the edge pulls you around the turn when it is engaged in the snow. You do not need to turn or steer your skis. The speed is controlled by the radius of the turn. The radius is set in the top 1/3rd of the turn. Counter to the max (face the outside of the turn from your hips up) fully from the beginning of the turn. Keep both skis side by side by pulling strongly back with the inside ski all the way through every turn. Do not allow tip lead. Angulate (bend in the middle) and stay balanced. Is any of this contrary to what you've been told that isn't working well for you? Hmmmmm

Moguls---Pull your feet strongly back as your toes crest over the bump. This brings your ski tips down to the snow. Extend your legs and make a curving side slip on the face (back) of the mogul. When you reach the bottom, pull your knees (or feet, whatever expression works for you) up, way up, to absorb the bump, slide around to the next mogul face (back), pull your feet strongly back as your toes cross the crest, extend down that bump in a curving slide slip. Keep your chest facing down the hill. Reach way down the hill ready to plant your pole. Be set up and ready to turn before your skis reach the fall line. Look at your possible next turn--this one, no that one, plant & turn. Get your head & shoulders way out down the hill. If you sit back, or twist your body around toward the hill, or lean toward the hill, you're doomed. (A friend got a good mogul lesson from a coach who explained the green line through the bumps, and the blue line, and the black line. That worked well for him. He explained it to me, and it meant nothing to me. We're all individuals with individual ways of seeing and learning things.)
 

Magi

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I'd vote unlimited lessons. The camp is going to be a great experience, the lessons are going to be consistent feedback toward improvement. I find lessons 3 days in a row +three days skiing alone will generally yield less improvement than alternating a lesson with time to work on what you learned, followed by more feedback. The fastest improvement comes with the tightest feedback loop.

If you can go midweek, you are also highly likely to be in a private (or close to it) lesson.
 

markojp

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Too many instructors have a high quotient of natural ability and little understanding of teaching the fundamentals to we who were born with little natural ability but with a big passion for skiing.

A little stroll into the weeds, but I honestly don't know of any 'naturally talented' fully certified skiers in the PNW that can't do a good lesson. Can it be guaranteed hit it out of the park effective for each individual? No. Who you click with is sometimes a bit of a mystery, but that's neither here nor Tahoe there for liane. I'd say the biggest problem is an instructor who's taught for a long time and has little interest in staying current or continuing to work on their own skills.... everyone needs a good coach, including coaches.

(Personally, I can get a huge amount just following/observing a really strong skier, but that's just me... I'm pretty much captain visual.)

An advantage of the unlimited lesson deal, a big advantage, is your ability to fire your instructor. Come back another day for a better instructor. Or change groups before you go out if you're with an ineffective instructor.

Yep! Absolutely! :golfclap:

We're all individuals with individual ways of seeing and learning things.

Yep, and a strong coach/instructor knows this... now whether you get one in a group line up is another story, but that goes to the second, and very good point.
:beercheer:


The womens' clinic thing... IMHO, and FWIW, as a male, it's difficult to try standing in the shoes of women and comment with any authority. Some thrive in a coed environment and think womens' clinics are silly self segregation, while others are able to relax in like company and make huge progress. Whatever works. laine, I'm sure you know how this will fit your narrative. Good luck and am glad to hear you're interest in investing in yourself to enjoy the sport more. Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

ogsmile
 
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fatbob

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Lessons but try to get your own crew together so you can manage the group. I've done the unlimited lesson thing before and found that it could be a variable experience e.g. some guy brings his teen son along and the whole group dynamic changes to catering for ADD. Plus in many ski schools -advanced means aspirational intermediate rather than necessarily people with huge mileage under their belts. The advantage is no guilt about sacking off the class if the instructor isn't working for you that day or you're not feeling the love yourself.

Best ski "class" I ever took at Squaw was one of those "Ski with Jonny" promotionals. Mosely took out a group of about 20 of us and gradually whittled us down through progressively harder terrain til it ended up about 3 of us hammering West Face with him (well to be fair he zippered it top to bottom,we wheezed down)
 

Jilly

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I've done both. I've taken what was called Roxy Snow Camp at WB 2 years running. As mentioned, instructor makes all the difference. First time, great gal, CSIA 3. Second year I just didn't click with her and she was CSIA 4. This camp is still running under another sponsor. It's 2 days on a weekend.

Season lessons....I've done those too. And personally I think it's the way to go. Camps run all day. Lessons may be mornings only, then you have the afternoon to practice up. At Tremblant we have numerous types of lessons, including Elle ski which is women only. I did the Summit Club. The week day group are more social, the weekend group are weekend warriors with the social. Some of Tremblant's best instructors are part of this program. One of the big reasons I did the Summit Club was I was skiing alone and needed someone to ski with. The bonus was the lessons. I usually took the 2nd from the top group. But sometimes, it was "you're coming with us". Bumps and trees were the specialty of a few instructors, so I tended to look for them as that was what I needed to work on too.

Either way you'll win.
 

T-Square

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First, take a look inside yourself. These are things that relate having a good time and getting the most out the instruction no matter what form you get it in.
  • How do you like to learn?
  • What teaching techniques have resulted in the best results for you?
  • Do you learn better in a group or one on one?
  • Once you are shown something do you need time to absorb it or do you want to move on to something new right away?
  • What time commitments are you willing to make or have available to devote to the endeavor?
  • What is the subject? (Some subjects are better learned spread out, while others in concentrated lumps.)
The answers to those questions may lead you to the logical choice that suits you.

Just so you know, I've taken concentrated and spread out lessons. I had a ball in all of them and learned grunches either way.
 

Monique

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Hi, @laine ! I've done both - a couple of women's steeps camps, and also have been doing the Breck seasonal lesson program for ... jeez, I think 8 years now. It's gone through a lot of changes - unsurprisingly, ones that make the program easier on the ski school logistics and budget while whittling down the student experience (IMO).

Many of the posters so far have made assumptions about the unlimited lesson program. If at all possible, find out. Do you get the same instructor the same time? The same group of students? How much flexibility do you have? What are the blackout dates? How big might the groups get / what's the minimum group size they'll allow before combining? Will there be enough students at your level so that you are taking lessons oriented toward the stuff you want to ski?*

If you must choose one or the other, I personally would choose the unlimited lessons. There's less impact if you have an off day. Clinics can be tricky because you'll be sore and your brain is full but you have to get full value out of that second / Nth day. You may not click with the instructor. I've had clinics where the other students just weren't as aggro or comfortable with steeps as me, so I didn't feel like I got what I came for (and this was a steeps camp - I came to be challenged by steeps!).

Here's my experience with season long lessons: It is beneficial both to ski with the same instructor, and also to ski with multiple instructors. The same instructor can help you with progression and knows your mental and physical abilities and limitations. A different instructor may give you a drill or express things in a new way that will suddenly make something click.

I went from a level 6 to a "skis with level 9s" (I just can't call myself a level 9, having seen the top members of the groups ski) through the seasonal lessons. If there are ski school lift lines, a lesson group is also a godsend, especially on a powder day. You'll get way more vert and way more opportunities to ski fresh tracks. Instructors also may have an "in" with ski patrol and know about a rope drop before anyone else discovers it.

You will likely get to know which instructors you want to ski with, meaning that if you want to book a private lesson, you know some instructors that will give you great value. I have been fortunate enough to do multiple private lessons with instructors who know me, and who I knew to be fantastic and a good fit for me. It's always been a wonderful experience.

You will also get to know other people who ski the same terrain you do. I have a lot of friends I choose not to ski with, because they don't share my skiing preferences. This way you will get to know people who will be great skiing buddies, whether or not you'd hang out with them a lot outside of skiing. (And you may meet some who are both!)

* Instructors will tell you that you will improve your technique on terrain less challenging than the stuff you want to ski, which is true. In my experience though, at a certain level you also want a guide to hold your hand (metaphorically!) through some really gnarly stuff. You may want help with tactics - narrow entrances. Rocks on narrow runs. Strategies for steeps. Line choice. These can be practiced to some extent on less challenging terrain, but it's also helpful to have a guide when you actually go there - especially if you start freaking out and there is no easier way down.

The quality of the instructor is everything. Their Level means little. The understanding of skiing and understanding of teaching means a lot. Too many instructors have a high quotient of natural ability and little understanding of teaching the fundamentals to we who were born with little natural ability but with a big passion for skiing.

Completely agreed, although to be honest I don't remember ever skiing with an instructor who couldn't teach me something. Okay, there was one guy who did teach me some stuff, but mostly seemed interested in jumping off of things himself ... in a level 7 class where we were working on carving and he didn't teach us anything about jumping; he was having fun. But other than that, they've always been helpful.

But some instructors will teach you something, and others will rock your world. There's a huge gap between a great instructor and a good one. I agree that level is not the end-all be-all, but in my experience, the higher the level, the *more likely* it is that you will get fantastic instruction. I always get in trouble for saying this because someone speaks up telling me that they are (or know) a level 2 instructor and they're much better than the level 3 instructors they know, etc, and that's great for them. But statistically, if I know nothing else, I'll take an examiner over a level 3, a level 3 over a level 2, etc. Although note that an examiner is way more likely to put you through technical paces and talk about anatomy and physics. But the great thing about examiners is that they should have a proven ability to teach to a variety of learning styles, and to recognize what is working and what isn't.

A woman won't give you a better lesson than an equally good man.

Bullcrap.

Sorry, that just slipped out. What I mean to say is - in my experience as an actual woman (I assume you're not, but of course I could be wrong) - and yes, some women will have different experiences - an excellent female instructor is innately better because when you see a man do something, you're like, okay, that's great, he can do that. When you see a woman do the same thing, you think, oh, wow, maybe I can do that, too! One of my favorite instructors was once a competitive extreme skier, and is built somewhat like me (but more athletic), and when I see her jump a rock/cornice or ski a tricky line, I see something to aspire to. Another favorite instructor was also once a competitive extreme skier, and when I see him jump or ski a tricky line, I just don't have the same feeling. It's important to have role models who look like you. And note that this female instructor calls this male instructor her favorite instructor on the mountain. He's a fantastic instructor who has taught me so much, and in fact next season I'm signed up to take 20 lessons with him next season. But it's a different experience.
 

MikeS

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It looks like they're not kidding when they say unlimited. It looks like you could show up every day and take lessons all day if you wanted. If it were me, I'd take that option. You'll end up being able to do a lot more to tailor things to your own learning style that way than with a short duration, high intensity clinic.

When I take lessons (yes, I take lessons. every good instructor takes lessons), I prefer to select a single thing to work on, down to something as specific as how is my inside knee tracking or something minute like that.Then the coach will give me drills for that one thing. Then I'll work the hell out of that drill with the coach until I'm doing the drill the right way. That might take place over the course of a morning, an hour, or maybe a single run. Then I like to go off on my own and fiddle with that one thing until I feel like I've locked it up. Then I'll go back, do a quick check with the coach to confirm it's looking good, and move to the next thing. That process might take the rest of the morning, the rest of the day, the rest of the week, or longer. Having unlimited lessons means you won't feel like you're wasting money if you skip out of a lesson after a run or two. Or that you're compelled to go back the next day if you're not done with what you worked on last time.

Other people like to have the ski knowledge truck backed up to them, and unloaded in huge dollops. If that's your style, you can take the clinic, or you can just take the unlimited lessons in a more intensive style.

I think the biggest upside to the clinic style of instruction is the social aspect. And no, I'm not talking about après. Parallel learning, learning from other students as well as the instructor, creating a learning community within the group is something that all good clinicians strive to achieve in their clinic groups. My experience with multiday clinics has been through PSIA, and I know I've learned loads from everyone in my group, not just the clinician. So I can see the upside there, as well.

To answer your title question about what's better... it depends!
 

crgildart

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Go clinic if you are looking to focus on a particular discipline (race, bumps, park, BC, tele, etc..).. Go lessons if you are looking to improve your overall skiing in general. For general skiing the more diverse group of "good" instructors you work with over time, the more you will have in your tool box of experience to use on the mountain, better all around skier..
 

at_nyc

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Maybe the OP is overthinking it? It's likely either one will work out just as well?

I've done both. Each had produced significant improvement in my skiing. After a 4 day clinic, I thought "Wow, I'm skiing WAY better". Well, a few years later, I took a bunch of lessons once a week for a good part of a season. I didn't have a wow moment. But by the end of the season, I was skiing WAY BETTER than the beginning of the season!
 

markojp

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Maybe the OP is overthinking it? It's likely either one will work out just as well?

I've done both. Each had produced significant improvement in my skiing. After a 4 day clinic, I thought "Wow, I'm skiing WAY better". Well, a few years later, I took a bunch of lessons once a week for a good part of a season. I didn't have a wow moment. But by the end of the season, I was skiing WAY BETTER than the beginning of the season!


More likely everyone else is overthinking things. :roflmao:
 

GettingThere

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So I've been thinking about where to get my pass next year - Sugar Bowl, Squaw/Alpine, or some combination of both. And one of the things I want to focus on next season is steeps/mogul improvement.

A friend did the Squaw Women's Clinic last year and loved it.
http://squawalpine.com/skiing-riding/women-winter-camp

Another friend (who has the Squaw/Alpine pass) is considering getting the Alpine unlimited group lessons.
http://squawalpine.com/skiing-riding/alpine-unlimited-lessons

What do you think is a more effective way to really improve? Concentrated teaching - or spread out across the season?

thanks.

Depends (concentrated vs. spread out) on your level, and style of learning, as well as how well you can self-coach. How many days do you get in? Squaw has the Ski Club (parallels the ski team schedule and runs 9-12). Its a great deal and the instructors are all very high level. PM me if you need more details. If you are honest with your skiing and put the days in (and take extra time to practice what you learn) you will see a lot of improvement.
 

4ster

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Some good points made & always good to hear input from people in the same boots/shoes as you, who have experienced both formats.
I think some of your decision should be based on the amount of time & days on snow you plan to have. I would lean toward the clinic if it were going to be part of a week or longer ski trip or vacation. It could, would & should enhance the overall experience. If this were the case I would schedule the clinic near the beginning of week or season.

Otherwise, I would lean toward the season long repeating lessons especially If you are able to freeski at least one day after the lesson day. Along with improving your technique you should also get the chance to apply different tactics as conditions change during the season. This type of program (as mentioned by @markojp & others) works best when there is a consistent & cohesive group that can play together, as well as learn. There may be some juggling of the team during the first session(s) but once the team is established it can be very productive. This is especially true if you can learn from the other group members & allow the coach to eventually act primarily as a facilitator.

My answer is:

Do both ;)
 

Mikey

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When I take lessons (yes, I take lessons. every good instructor takes lessons), I prefer to select a single thing to work on, down to something as specific as how is my inside knee tracking or something minute like that.Then the coach will give me drills for that one thing. Then I'll work the hell out of that drill with the coach until I'm doing the drill the right way. That might take place over the course of a morning, an hour, or maybe a single run. Then I like to go off on my own and fiddle with that one thing until I feel like I've locked it up. Then I'll go back, do a quick check with the coach to confirm it's looking good, and move to the next thing. That process might take the rest of the morning, the rest of the day, the rest of the week, or longer. Having unlimited lessons means you won't feel like you're wasting money if you skip out of a lesson after a run or two. Or that you're compelled to go back the next day if you're not done with what you worked on last time.

Other people like to have the ski knowledge truck backed up to them, and unloaded in huge dollops. If that's your style, you can take the clinic, or you can just take the unlimited lessons in a more intensive style.

You know...this really speaks to me. I can't say I've been impressed with any lesson that I have done. It's frustrating. So frustrating that even though I skied for 2.5 month this past season, in one resort, I couldn't bring myself to get another lesson. Instead, I watched videos, messaged a few times with razie and did drills. I was also teaching my partner so I had to take drills a lot more serious. Overall, it went really well. I improved, my partner really improved and we had, for the most part, a great time.

I've come to the conclusion that if I leave it in the instructors hands that the lesson will be a fail. The last lesson I had was from a former olympic skier. My goal was to finally try and learn to ski bumps. I got lucky and had him entirely to myself, so it should have been somewhat of a success, but it was a massive failure and I learned nothing (cool watching him effortlessly ski though). I know now how *I* need to progress and I'm not going to be willing to go to step 2 until I can do step 1. With my olympic skier instructor, I couldn't get through a smaller open mogul field clean (still can't really, but after this past season, I'm getting closer) before he had me skiing bumps in the trees, in powder.

I do understand the challenge of an instructor teaching beginners to intermediates. I know it must be difficult to gear a lesson to those just skiing for a few days to a week.

I think all instructors have in them to instruct correctly...they did go through the training after all and passed the tests. Every lesson, the instructor asks, "What do you want to work on" or something to that effect, but somehow, it goes off the rails pretty quick as we progress through 4 or 5 skills through the course of the lesson. In a group, it's harder to dictate how the lesson will proceed but if I can manage to get in a 1 or 2 person group lesson it should go better next time.

With my partner, I know exactly how she learns and how she is motivated, so if I can correctly learn the skills, I can transfer to her.

I did have an instructor a couple years back that I thought was good, so if he is there this coming season, I'll get him and know how to approach the lessons (I did say lessonS)
 
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Dave Marshak

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I was an instructor for a long time, and I think you should look for a third way. You don't need to take what the ski school offers. They will listen to any reasonable proposal from a potential student.

Groups can be more effective than private lessons, but it all depends on the group. A series of random group lessons will almost certainly include some disappointing days, and maybe only one or two or less really good experiences. A large part of that is that (in my experience) most instructors believe that the people who drop in for random groups are less interested in learning than in hearing how great they ski.

The best solution is to find your own group of skiers with similar goals to your own, and bring that group to the ski school and negotiate your own deal. It won't be any cheaper, but you will have more control and a better chance of a good experience than in any random group.

Finally, at least in the East, the best clinics for a confident intermediate are the early season ski school hiring clinics. You get a couple or four days with the best coaches on the mountain for less than the price of lift tickets, and they will tell you the real truth about your skills. Just remember you don't need to take the job, even if it is a hiring clinic.

dm
 

Monique

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The best solution is to find your own group of skiers with similar goals to your own, and bring that group to the ski school and negotiate your own deal. It won't be any cheaper, but you will have more control and a better chance of a good experience than in any random group.

This doesn't require negotiation. Every ski area I know of supports private lessons for groups up to N people. It's usually the price of a single-person private lesson, plus sometimes a little extra per person.

But if you're going to go that route, I really really really highly encourage you (the person getting the lesson) to do some research and figure out a couple of instructor names, and if possible coordinate ahead of time to be sure those instructors are available to teach that day. Wherever you go, someone on pugski or skidiva or the other region-specific fora will likely be able to point you to high quality instructors.

A large part of that is that (in my experience) most instructors believe that the people who drop in for random groups are less interested in learning than in hearing how great they ski.

I think you're right, and I think that's based on instructors' experience, and therefore it is really important to communicate to the instructor at the start of the lesson, or possibly even before the start of the lesson, while the supervisor is still organizing the groups.

I've come to the conclusion that if I leave it in the instructors hands that the lesson will be a fail. The last lesson I had was from a former olympic skier. My goal was to finally try and learn to ski bumps. I got lucky and had him entirely to myself, so it should have been somewhat of a success, but it was a massive failure and I learned nothing (cool watching him effortlessly ski though). I know now how *I* need to progress and I'm not going to be willing to go to step 2 until I can do step 1. With my olympic skier instructor, I couldn't get through a smaller open mogul field clean (still can't really, but after this past season, I'm getting closer) before he had me skiing bumps in the trees, in powder.

If you mean by that that you have to tell the instructor what you need, then yes, absolutely. Good instructors should start the lesson by asking everyone what they want to work on. They appreciate people speaking up, and they appreciate specificity. If they don't ask, you tell them. It is YOUR lesson and YOU are paying them to be there. As I indicated above, it's even better to get to lineup early and talk to the instructors and supervisor - tell them that you (in your case) really want to focus on X and do not want to keep going to Y unless X is nailed. (That way they can get you in a group with like-minded students.) As Dave hinted at, your goals aren't necessarily typical student goals. A lot of times, they want to go straight to powder and trees, and so the instructor may be making assumptions to get you there as soon as possible. A good instructor will adapt. For me personally, because powder is a gift from the fickle gods, if I managed to snag a lesson on a powder day, I would want to take advantage of that. Who knows when I will next get the opportunity to have instruction in powder skiing! (NB: these days I take lessons on powder days specifically to cut lines and get more vert. I would be livid if someone thought a powder day was a good day to drill. But again, communication is key to make that clear. Worst to worst, you can refuse the lesson and get a refund because they weren't able to offer you what you wanted.)

I would not necessarily assume that a former professional skier is the best person to teach you the basics. They were probably naturally gifted from an early age, and kids learn differently than adults, and unless they specifically decided to focus on learning how to teach laypeople, they may not be that good at it. (Steeps camps are a different beast - you're not learning the basics of skiing, but rather certain tactical and strategic approaches after already knowing how to ski at a high level. Hopefully.) Of course this is an extreme generalization and not a rule.

It does sound like you are a great candidate for private instruction so that you can really hone in on "step 1" until you have it to your satisfaction. Many students won't have the patience for that. And I also encourage you to speak up - he "had you" skiing bumps in trees and powder, but what happened there? Did you tell him that you wanted to keep focusing on the basics, or did you only realize that this was a mistake after some later introspection? This is a good time to mention: while your instructor on some level acts as your guide and you should be able to trust them, use your own judgment as well. It is always okay to say, "Look, I am not comfortable doing X. You guys can go ahead and ski it, but it's not for me today." I have heard horror stories and seen some craziness myself when students don't advocate for themselves, and the instructor misjudges their ability or confidence level. (Sometimes people have the ability on mellower terrain, but when they get scared they lose it.)
 

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