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Crank

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To me, it's simple -- really good skiers are always in motion. There's no "holding" of a position, there's no static traverses where the ski has lost all of its energy out of the old turn, etc. I don't care if you're bouncing slalom turns straight down the fall line or hauling super-G sized turns, they're never static.

Well yeah when they are skiing it's easy to tell. Add yes, even skating to the lift you can see their practiced ease of motion. But what if they are just standing there?
 

KingGrump

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Well yeah when they are skiing it's easy to tell. Add yes, even skating to the lift you can see their practiced ease of motion. But what if they are just standing there?

Photo of skier standing at the edge of the abyss.
Peace and tranquility. Like most things that are nebulous in life, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

AE_P1000217.jpg


Perhaps that is why they are the instructors and we are the students. We have much to learn.
 

Olesya C

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Interesting to me because my girlfriend, Robin, had a similar but opposite issue at Taos' ski week. She is an advanced skier who does not have good looking technique and was placed in a group with much lower level skiers. She is not one to speak up in that sort of situation and spent the week bored with the lessons and waiting for others in her group. We are also going to Taos this season and it is taking a lot of convincing to get her to to sign up for the ski week this time around.
Taos ski school is wonderful and they are very accommodating to skiers wanting to change groups in my experience. If your girlfriend ever takes the ski week again perhaps she can speak up after her first day and ask for a group change? I know it's hard to speak up about that, i can relate to that - and have to be diplomatic about the reason. For me it wasn't just the level of the group I was in for the first day of ski week, I didn't "click" wit the instructor either. When I was asking for the group change I said I needed a higher technique level group, but don't want to ski extreme terrain, also said that the instructor I had on a first day was great but he was catering to a more intermediate group of skiers and I am a little bit past that stage of my skiing. The group I was in on a 2nd day after switch was perfect in every way - I liked the instructor ans the group. Taos ski week usually has many groups of various levels and pace from what I understand so by giving as much information as possible to instructors after the ski off will help to find the best match.
 

mdf

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The problem with being "under-grouped" is that the instructor may be focused on tactics for the students who are on new-to-them scary terrain, not leaving much time or attention for the technique of those who are managing survival skiing just fine.
 

Monique

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I have know plenty of advanced skiers who did not have textbook technique yet have a great time skiing steeps, woods, can handle varied snow conditions. She is one of them. She skids more than carves and she bends at the waist and yet she loves bumps and trees and can hang just fine with a group of good skiers on sketchy terrain... OK sometimes I have to wait for her but she is worth waiting for!

I think you actually met her at Aspen though I don't think we all skied together.

I mean, I get what you're saying. But I understood you to mean she was at the Taos lesson program. In that context, presumably one should be in a learning mindset. What was she looking to learn?

Unless -

The problem with being "under-grouped" is that the instructor may be focused on tactics for the students who are on new-to-them scary terrain, not leaving much time or attention for the technique of those who are managing survival skiing just fine.

I hadn't considered that angle. That would be frustrating if you're already fine with the terrain and comfortable with the tactics. Actually, I can identify with that completely - I did a Silverton women's camp, and some of the women in my group were just nowhere near as familiar with steeps and big mountain terrain as I was. So we spent a lot of time on rah-rah "you can do it!" cheerleading, which meant lots of standing around, which is particularly bad when you're in avy terrain and so you're going one by one in the first place. And we never got to the kinds of skiing where some rah-rah cheerleading and tactical advice would have been helpful.


Anyway, it definitely does sound like something was off. I just had trouble with the assessment that she's a good skier who just happens to look bad when she skis. I realize I'm sounding like a jackhole here, but that's not a thing. And I say this as someone who has definitely chosen terrain sometimes where my skiing wasn't exactly pretty, but I met my goal of completing some particular run in one piece. There's also the phenomenon sometimes, I'm sure, where for whatever reason your skiing in the ski-off doesn't represent your real-world skiing. I can get thrown by that kind of pressure, for example.
 

Monique

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Don't think this is Robin's thing, but some people just ski a lot worse during a ski-off. Similar to those who fall anytime you point a camera at them.

Right, exactly.
 

Crank

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I mean, I get what you're saying. But I understood you to mean she was at the Taos lesson program. In that context, presumably one should be in a learning mindset. What was she looking to learn?

Unless -



I hadn't considered that angle. That would be frustrating if you're already fine with the terrain and comfortable with the tactics. Actually, I can identify with that completely - I did a Silverton women's camp, and some of the women in my group were just nowhere near as familiar with steeps and big mountain terrain as I was. So we spent a lot of time on rah-rah "you can do it!" cheerleading, which meant lots of standing around, which is particularly bad when you're in avy terrain and so you're going one by one in the first place. And we never got to the kinds of skiing where some rah-rah cheerleading and tactical advice would have been helpful.


Anyway, it definitely does sound like something was off. I just had trouble with the assessment that she's a good skier who just happens to look bad when she skis. I realize I'm sounding like a jackhole here, but that's not a thing. And I say this as someone who has definitely chosen terrain sometimes where my skiing wasn't exactly pretty, but I met my goal of completing some particular run in one piece. There's also the phenomenon sometimes, I'm sure, where for whatever reason your skiing in the ski-off doesn't represent your real-world skiing. I can get thrown by that kind of pressure, for example.

Well she was with our ski club before I was with the ski club or with her. I know everyone that was in her group and they are not at her level nor do they ski the kind of terrain she likes: off piste.

She does not like lessons and I keep my advice/tips to a minimum. I think there are a good number of folks who may choke a bit when under the scrutiny of a ski off. I did one at Alta a few years ago where the instructors just skied a run with us from the Collins lodge to the bottom of the chair and that seemed to work well.

I have been skiing a long time and have skied with many self taught skiers who could make is down very challenging terrain and make it down fast and intact and looked like crap skiing a blue groomer. Conversely I have seen many more skiers who look good skiing a blue groomer who look like crap and take forever to get down something really challenging. I think who was in a group of skiers who fit that description. She has skied some of the toughest runs at Mad River Glen and Stowe with a bunch of guys who were on epicski and are now here and I don't think she held the groups up at all.

You strike me as someone who really likes taking lessons. That is fine. She is opposite of that and really does not like taking lessons. I have not taken a lot and have not gotten a lot out of ones I have taken in recent years. I am looking forward to the Taos ski week and am expecting to be taken to some cool, challenging spots with the best snow on the hill. If I can become a better skier along the way I am good with that.

BTW, I am one who believes that the better your technique is, the more fun you will have. Most here probably agree with that. There are a lot of skiers who don't see it that way or don't care enough to really strive to be the best they can be. We here are a minority that is for sure!
 

Crank

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Don't think this is Robin's thing, but some people just ski a lot worse during a ski-off. Similar to those who fall anytime you point a camera at them.

I resemble that remark!
 

Monique

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You strike me as someone who really likes taking lessons. That is fine. She is opposite of that and really does not like taking lessons. I have not taken a lot and have not gotten a lot out of ones I have taken in recent years.

I do enjoy taking lessons, but I have nothing against people who don't! Most of the people I ski with are more technically AND terrainally (totally a word) proficient than I am, but there are some who are really kind of a hot mess for technique, but they will ski things confidently that I wouldn't touch. And that's just fine. I do wonder why someone who doesn't like lessons would inflict a week long lesson program on themselves. I wonder if she (and you) wouldn't have been happier at a self-described big mountain series, like Jackson Hole Steep & Deep camps ...

I am looking forward to the Taos ski week and am expecting to be taken to some cool, challenging spots with the best snow on the hill. If I can become a better skier along the way I am good with that.

I haven't done the Taos ski week, but I wonder if it's the right tool for that job. Perhaps it is! And perhaps they'll see your skiing and put you in one of those groups. I agree it's kind of befuddling to use technical skills on a relatively tame slope to determine terrain choices. Perhaps a better approach would be to ask students about terrain preferences, then compare that to how they do in the ski-off, and try to build groups of like-minded people and similar skills. But I guess no approach is perfect. The current ski-off sounds like it is biased toward technique improvement, which isn't too surprising, as that's instructor catnip.

I totally get what you're looking for - that's what I want if I'm going to a new ski resort. Heck, that's often what I get out of my mid-season lessons. But from an instructor point of view, I can well imagine that if they don't see certain technical pieces, they might see a person as a liability. This is why I wonder if the Steep and Deep camps might not be a better fit - I have friends who've done them, and they do a ski off through truly gnarly terrain. I'm sure they're looking for very different things than are the instructors at Taos.

The other option, if you have the resources, is to book a private or semi-private lesson in which you specifically request a guide who can take you to that stuff. Breck even has a Guide program that allows you to start before the lifts officially open. The problem with any group lesson is, you're stuck with the preferences of the other N people in the group.

Or, as you alluded to - she gots to speak up! I may be belaboring the entirely wrong point here, and maybe there was a group that would have fit her interests. And obviously I'm typing at you, not her, which is kinda silly.

Okay, I have beaten my particular dead horse entirely too much. I'm sorry your gf (who I may have met - I met so many people!!) had a shitty experience over several days of lessons. No matter what, that is unfun and a waste of money.
 

Pequenita

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During the second part of one ski off this winter that I thought was particularly accurate is where they took the whole lot of us to some untouched snow, gave us some info on the terrain (i.e., options), and said, "Okay, we'll meet you at the cat track." About 4 or 5 of us immediately took off -- I mean, untouched snow -- and we were grouped together. We had already been divided up by skill level based on an earlier ski off, so now they were looking to see how we approached terrain/eagerness/confidence, etc. I'm not sure how it shook out for the other groups, but it worked out well for mine.
 

Crank

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My assessment of what I expect from the Taos ski week is kind of based on things I have learned from some who are familiar with the program. Mostly from a grump who skis there now and then.

JH Steep and Deep is something I have looked into but the price is way more than I want to spend for 3 days of skiing! Taos Ski Week is going to set me back $180.
 

Monique

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My assessment of what I expect from the Taos ski week is kind of based on things I have learned from some who are familiar with the program. Mostly from a grump who skis there now and then.

JH Steep and Deep is something I have looked into but the price is way more than I want to spend for 3 days of skiing! Taos Ski Week is going to set me back $180.

Excellent points. Grump seems to know what he's talking about most of the time ;-)

I hope you get what you're looking for. I would also love to do the Taos ski week some time, and I'd also want to be exploring the best terrain and conditions, not doing drills.
 

KingGrump

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Well she was with our ski club before I was with the ski club or with her. I know everyone that was in her group and they are not at her level nor do they ski the kind of terrain she likes: off piste.

She does not like lessons and I keep my advice/tips to a minimum. I think there are a good number of folks who may choke a bit when under the scrutiny of a ski off. I did one at Alta a few years ago where the instructors just skied a run with us from the Collins lodge to the bottom of the chair and that seemed to work well.

I have been skiing a long time and have skied with many self taught skiers who could make is down very challenging terrain and make it down fast and intact and looked like crap skiing a blue groomer. Conversely I have seen many more skiers who look good skiing a blue groomer who look like crap and take forever to get down something really challenging. I think who was in a group of skiers who fit that description. She has skied some of the toughest runs at Mad River Glen and Stowe with a bunch of guys who were on epicski and are now here and I don't think she held the groups up at all.

You strike me as someone who really likes taking lessons. That is fine. She is opposite of that and really does not like taking lessons. I have not taken a lot and have not gotten a lot out of ones I have taken in recent years. I am looking forward to the Taos ski week and am expecting to be taken to some cool, challenging spots with the best snow on the hill. If I can become a better skier along the way I am good with that.

BTW, I am one who believes that the better your technique is, the more fun you will have. Most here probably agree with that. There are a lot of skiers who don't see it that way or don't care enough to really strive to be the best they can be. We here are a minority that is for sure!

I can feel where you are coming from regarding your wife. Just have her speak with her instructor about it. Best time is at the end of the Sunday morning lesson. This will give them a heads up. They do most of the horse trading Monday Morning in the locker room. If they have issues with the request. Ask to speak with a supervisor or go to the ski school desk right after the lesson.

The supervisors are usually at the Whistle Stop every morning. Get there a bit earlier so she can catch them while they are doing the rounds. If you don't know who the supervisors are. Just ask around with the regulars and/or another instructor. The regulars all know who is who. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

BTW, the are ski week groups that caters to the adrenaline fueled type. Minimal instruction. Lots of hiking and terrain. Ask to be in one of those groups. Looks like she will be happy there.
 

mdf

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Steep and Deep camps... a ski off through truly gnarly terrain.
Umm, not really. It's just a little-used steep off-trail pitch near Wally's World. No bumps, no trees, no exposure. One year they (or maybe the wind) even sprinkled a few spruce twigs to help with depth perception. Ironically, S&D was where our instructor "gently but firmly" told us we didn't have a clue -- she didn't put it that way, of course -- which started me at age 49 on the road to really learning how to ski. By the end of the camp, another student and I were telling each other "first, we have to un-learn how to ski."

Several years later, on the year without a tram, they did the ski off in Broken Goggle or Lost Goggle, which was a bit gnarly, especially with zero visibility that day. I fell on an unexpected and unseen slope-angle transition. And I ski generally poorly when I can't see.

At Taos, we hiked the ridge most days, and our instructor took us to a lot of interesting spots. Taos ski week is a little more towards the instruction end of the instruct vs guide spectrum, but it really is not that different. Cheaper, though.
 

KingGrump

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I haven't done the Taos ski week, but I wonder if it's the right tool for that job. Perhaps it is! And perhaps they'll see your skiing and put you in one of those groups. I agree it's kind of befuddling to use technical skills on a relatively tame slope to determine terrain choices. Perhaps a better approach would be to ask students about terrain preferences, then compare that to how they do in the ski-off, and try to build groups of like-minded people and similar skills. But I guess no approach is perfect. The current ski-off sounds like it is biased toward technique improvement, which isn't too surprising, as that's instructor catnip.

That is why I always advocate speaking up. Talk it out.

Excellent points. Grump seems to know what he's talking about most of the time ;-)

You have way too much faith in me.
 

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