Visual Cues of improper alignment

[Erik Timmerman]

Anybody have any resources they want to share on this? It could be what does mis-alignment look like in high performance skiing as well as what it looks like when doing drills.

 

[razie]

As you know, it can get pretty complicated, here's some simple exaggerated examples of soft/strong I use for coaches:

There's a lot of good stuff in this video:
Alignment ~ On-snow Assessment eVideo

 

[Doby Man]

A basic alignment visual cue I use is seeking “equity” in certain angles throughout the skis, the body and body to slope alignment. I first start with the skis: Are they faced in the same direction (parallel). Are they tipped equally? Are the skis without much tip lead? Are they bending and engaging the snow in unison? I then go to the body: Are the shins parallel? Are the forward lean on the shins equal to the forward lean of the torso (fore/aft stacking)? Are the shoulders square with the slope (laterally and rotationally) Are the arms carrying symmetry? I look for both inclination and angulation and how the former transitions to the later. Overall I seek a stacking of the skeleton that is balanced equitably against and shifting with the prevailing forces of the turn. For expert skiers I examine their state of flow, whether there are seams in movement and their causation that can/may be linked to skeletal alignment. Sometimes I muse to myself about “dynamic architecture” and what a skyscraper is designed to do during an earthquake in the way that “psia man” skis.

 

[PTskier]

Here's more showing two skiers before and after correction: http://www.gmolfoot.com/gmolfootperformance.htm

A common thing to see is the need to tuck one knee behind the other to find the inside edges for the knock kneed skier. The bow legged skier will need a very wide stance to get to their inside edges.

An easy on-snow test is on a flat easy run, ski on one foot 45° to the left of the fall line, 45° to the right, and straight down the fall line. Change feet and do it again. If the skier can do all these in a straight line without body contortions, they're pretty well aligned. If a lot of body positioning is needed, then a trip to the alignment specialist is needed.

 

[Philpug]

I was working with some of the examiners at Northstar a few years back. We did video when they were going for their level II. We looked at mirroring left and right turns and why they were not looking identical the tried to remove the gear as the variable. What we looked for was A-framing, skidding vs carving on one turn verses the other and hip postion. Most of the video was done on a green/blue trail that was flat as possible with no double fall line.

 

[BGreen]

There's a lot of good stuff in this video:
Alignment ~ On-snow Assessment eVideo

+1 on that.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but there are three key pieces with four directional adjustments each: footbed including boot board, cuff alignment, and sole. Each of these can move left/right and up/down (or fore/aft for the cuff). The footbed/boot board aligns the bones in the foot and ankle into a neutral position. The cuff position controls the ability to access each edge and the immediacy of edge engagement, and sole cant is the final piece to align the skeleton. Each piece you need to consider fore/aft angle as well as in/out (medial/lateral) angle. Yes, I understand that each piece is interconnected and you can do all the work with the boot board or by adjusting the sole, but it really works best to do each piece individually. If you do, it’s not too hard.

It’s pretty easy to spot poor alignment. Knowing exactly which variable to tweak when you are just skiing is much harder, and nearly impossible unless you already know what all the other variables are. Some coaches prefer to work exclusively with one boot fitter, some prefer to do all the work themselves so they know what has been done, and if there is a problem it is because the sole needs to go a quarter degree out because insole, boot board and cuff are where they should be. I tend to fall in the later group, or if they’re working with a boot fitter, I will come along to see and understand what is being done, or interject if I want something done another way.

This isn’t ego, it’s about knowing exactly where everyone is any why, and where to go from there. For example an overly restrictive footbed looks the same as an ankle bone hitting the shell. A skier that needs a 2 mm heel lift in the boot to achieve full ankle movement (inversion/eversion) will look the same as someone with a footbed that needs to get cut down some. A skier who is A-framed may be struggling becuse the cuffs are too far out (even if moved all the way in) and they are not able to tip the inside ski, or the medial wall of the boot is pressing against the medial side of their leg effectively shutting off small muscles. Or maybe because of past injuries or musculoskeletal structure, this is the best that athlete can get.

I can tell you that I have started looking first at cuff adjustment when I see a problem on the hill. Also I look to see if the outside ski is hooking up and releasing cleanly when the athlete wants. If a ski grabs and releases during a turn, that is a classic sign of being over cuffed (cuff too out). If a skier can’t cleanly carve the top of a turn, the cuff may need to move out a bit. It the cuff is right, but balance is off or the lower legs are not parallel, the sole probably needs some angle. Keep in mind that even small changes can take some time to get used to.

Skiing on one ski is a great tool for quickly assessing boot problems.

 

[Tony S]

I was working with some of the examiners at Northstar a few years back. We did video when they were going for their level II. We looked at mirroring left and right turns and why they were not looking identical the tried to remove the gear as the variable. What we looked for was A-framing, skidding vs carving on one turn verses the other and hip postion. Most of the video was done on a green/blue trail that was flat as possible with no double fall line.

If I have essentially the same alignment problem on both sides, is this still a useful diagnostic?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Anybody have any resources they want to share on this? It could be what does mis-alignment look like in high performance skiing as well as what it looks like when doing drills.

There is a book that includes some comprehensive ways to evaluate a skier's need for alignment while moving downhill on snow. There's a whole chapter on how to do this evaluation, with things to have the skier do that will reveal specific things a bootfitter can do to provide a fix.

It's title is "Alignment Technician Course Manual." It's available in pdf form only, as far as I can tell. Harald Harb is the author. Sorry, but I can't find a picture of the cover since it's only available as a pdf.

 

[4ster]

Parallel shins
Equal edge angles
Appropriate inside ski lead (matching sidecuts).
Level shoulders

All angles in all planes should match. All joints should bend & unbend equally.

 

[BornToSki683]

There is a book that includes some comprehensive ways to evaluate a skier's need for alignment while moving downhill on snow. There's a whole chapter on how to do this evaluation, with things to have the skier do that will reveal specific things a bootfitter can do to provide a fix.

It's title is "Alignment Technician Course Manual." It's available in pdf form only, as far as I can tell. Harald Harb is the author. Sorry, but I can't find a picture of the cover since it's only available as a pdf.

This summer they also released an evideo which I found more helpful for my own purposes where I am not doing my own boot work,.

It goes over specifically the "visual cues" on hill, its about an hour long and goes into depth on the MA process using drills and not; to determine alignment, including very subtle and not so subtle visual cues. It focuses both on ski performance on the snow as well as bio mechanical compensations made by the skier.

 

[razie]

Appropriate inside ski lead (matching sidecuts).

What do you mean by matching sidecuts in relation to lead?

cheers

 

[4ster]

What do you mean by matching sidecuts in relation to lead?

cheers

Haha, I was afraid to add that. It is really my own little tag, not to be taken literally. Meant to help remember one element of the 4 part equation.
Like the 3 bears... Too much lead often shows as a diverging inside ski. Too much pullback & the outside ski may out carve the inside ski & create convergence or a slowing of the inside ski. Just right & the inside-outside ski arcs will compliment one another.
Hope that makes sense. I can delete it if it creates confusion.
Thanks


Right after I made that post I came across this thread. I only read page one but may be of interest to those who haven't seen it.
https://www.pugski.com/threads/binding-ramp-angle-differences.3078/#navigation

 

[Philpug]

If I have essentially the same alignment problem on both sides, is this still a useful diagnostic?

Thats where mirroring the turn comes in. If the skier is 1.5* off to the left in both legs, // (she) will have more trouble with one turn more than the otehr. and not be able to mirror as well.

 

[Tony S]

Thats where mirroring the turn comes in. If the skier is 1.5* off to the left in both legs, // (she) will have more trouble with one turn more than the otehr. and not be able to mirror as well.

My scenario is where the skier is n degrees off to the inside or outside on both legs. I.e., symmetrical, but misaligned. I happen to be inside edge heavy on both sides, for example. Not exactly to the same degree, but almost.

 

[Philpug]

My scenario is where the skier is n degrees off to the inside or outside on both legs. I.e., symmetrical, but misaligned. I happen to be inside edge heavy on both sides, for example. Not exactly to the same degree, but almost.

Like this: / \ or \ / like \\ or this // The former two: Thats where you will see one knee over compensating to match the edge angles. the latter two , i referred to in my previous post.

 

[john petersen]

I was working with some of the examiners at Northstar a few years back. We did video when they were going for their level II. We looked at mirroring left and right turns and why they were not looking identical the tried to remove the gear as the variable. What we looked for was A-framing, skidding vs carving on one turn verses the other and hip postion. Most of the video was done on a green/blue trail that was flat as possible with no double fall line.

Was there usable outcome?.....if so, what were some of the observations/corrections?

thanks

JP

 

[Philpug]

Was there usable outcome?.....if so, what were some of the observations/corrections?

thanks

JP

Absolutely. There were some that we played with stance and others canting and some both.

 

[john petersen]

This is a very complicated issue in reality. I totally agree that boot fitting and all that goes with it is extremely important. Im hoping that as folks get more skillful and have more fun, they seek to refine and explore. starting from the ground up like this, is very important.

Did you check the condition of the skis as well?


JP

 

[Philpug]

This is a very complicated issue in reality. I totally agree that boot fitting and all that goes with it is extremely important. Im hoping that as folks get more skillful and have more fun, they seek to refine and explore. starting from the ground up like this, is very important.

Did you check the condition of the skis as well?


JP

This was a couple of years ago..I do recall the oen that was the most in the need of change had jsut bought some Supershapes (Magnums IIRC) and they chances are they were indeed tuned since she bought them at Start Haus.

 

[BornToSki683]

It can be kind of complicated.

Visual cues are not as immediately obvious as one might think in some cases. Some of the typical signs that have been mentioned here thus far, can in fact be signals of bad alignment, but sometimes they can also be signals for entirely user-induced outcome from the movements they are making. For example, when you see someone enter a typical turn with a slight wedge entry, for whatever the reason, then you're going to see a bit of A-frame. That doesn't necessarily mean they are out of alignment in their boots, its actually the way they are skiing. Or might be.

Its also very possible to see some A-frame in certain situations of high performance skiing or ski racing that are entirely acceptable for that particular situation....and also not an indication of boot alignment problems necessarily. Or it could be.

The point is, don't jump to immediate conclusions based simply on some of those obvious visual clues such as A-frame or bow leggedness. Take in the information, drill down deeper.

This is assuming they have already dialed in their boot setup in terms of an appropriate footbed and cuff adjustment. At the very end of that process, alignment is the last thing to check after those aspects are getting them as close as possible to neutral in the boot.

By doing very careful one legged drills, such as straight running, traversing in both directions one foot at a time, etc..and looking at both the ski performance and body language, one can determine whether someone needs canting. These drills can also indicate they need to see a ski boot professional ASAP if problems show up and a query reveals that they are using off the shelf boots, with no foot bed or cuff adjustment having yet been done. Most ski resorts do not allow instructors to mess with the boots of their students, FWIW, its an insurance thing.

Very good skiers have balance adjusting skills and they readily and easily and do these kinds of exercise without problems, but if you know what to look for then you can still see them making those corrections and/or the ski doing certain things which would indicate their current alignment or mis-alignment. Isolating them to these very simple drills simplifies everything so that you can really focus on what CoM and leg are doing to the ski..or how the ski is sitting on the snow in simplified situations.

Ideally, using video is best if you don't have someone qualified to watch you. Unfortunately I have most often not been able to get either thing, so my own self-assessment of alignment has involved the above simple drills and trying to pay close attention to what I'm doing with my body, but also some additional things I do to convince myself I'm in the middle.

As a final check I do some two footed releasing drills and eventually some white pass turns and medium radius basic parallel, slow as I can go turns. I try to do the white pass slow also. When the alignment is right, then you should be able to release cleanly in basic parallel without a wedge entry, and doing white pass should not be much harder to release either. When the canting is way off, one or the other will be hard and the other will be too easy.

When its right, you will feel that you can traverse easily on one ski in either direction, but traversing on the uphill ski will be JUST SLIGHTLY harder to do then the downhill ski. You will be able to straight run on one ski without excessively leaning around and the ski will track so straight that it will probably wobble around on a flat ski a bit. You will be able to release from slow-as-you-can-go basic parallel turns very cleanly and likewise white pass turns will feel clean.

The video mentioned earlier has great info along these lines...