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at_nyc

Getting off the lift
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Just like my season pass is subsidized by folks paying full rate at the window.
I beg to differ in that assumption.

Season pass holders pay in advance. And even if your other life prevents you from using your season's pass for more than a few times, you can't get a refund. Those are the RISKS you stomach. For those risk, you get a discount. And that discount only materialize after you ski enough days beyond the break-even point.

Put another way, window rate payers pay extra for the flexibility of going anywhere they like, at the last minute. They also have the flexibility of skiing as few days as they like.
 

Brian Finch

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I’d love to see this fly, but in reality the lift line may be to biggest hurdle.

You can get insurance pretty inexpensively.

Getting past mountain management is a whole another story.

We’re seeing this more in Healthcare as concierge providers, yet for every 10 who attempt, 9.6 fail.
 

ScotsSkier

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The majority of my professional career, I worked as an "independent contractor". So yes, I too, have some modicum of understanding. BTW, I could have avoided all that "challenge" by working as an employed for about 60% pay.

Finding customers: Easy in this case, the "Uber" website will provide the platform and visibility. That's in addition to the more traditional word-of-mouth. Let's face it, illegal cabs had existed all along, usually operating in airports. But Uber makes it possible to connect rider with drivers outside of airport. The same mechanism can work connecting skier instructors and skiers. (in my case, I worked for the same 2-3 agencies which found more work than I have time to do. I tell them I'm "off the market" when I want to take a long break -- like last winter)

Licensing: There's no such requirement at the moment. But one can join PSIA as a start.

Insurance: I don't know about ski instructing. But during my years as "independent contractors", Some of my clients REQUIRED professional insurance. Surprise, surprise, there're actually many offers out there. Just pick the one that suits!

Overhead: I have to buy my own suit.;) So the equivalent for ski instructors, they need to buy their own ski jacket, perhaps have their name on it as a moving advertisement?

Yes, there were other challenges. But they are relatively easy to overcome, provided the reward is sufficient.

The question is, will the ski instructors get 40% extra pay as "independent contractors"? Or only 20%? Or 200% extra pay?


Good. Then you will remember that, among other things, from that extra 40 % you also have to cover your employers share of Fica/medicaid (~ 8%). Then of course you also have to work out how many billable hours you are actually going to get, as opposed to whatever hours/show up you are getting as an employee. And, as I pointed out previously, this assumes there is juts this huge untapped market out there of skiers just waiting to sign up for lessons.....:)....... I notice also you still assume that tehre would be no requirement to make any payment or franchise fee to the resort....

Absolutely agree that the Uber type model makes it easier to get clients. Of course depends on whether you can get people to book in advance or whether you are just going to hang about the mountain waiting to pick up last minute/spur of the moment pricing. (a slow tuesday in December??) ...and would you then charge more (congestion pricing?) or less for drop-ins. Whoops, almost forgot, you will have to pay that service a percentage of your fees as well (in the same way as the agencies you work through mark up your rates to the client) Or maybe the agency will sell you directly at a price they think is market rate while paying your flat rate (starting to sound kind of close to current system now! :huh:)

wrt Licensing, in some states (such as NV) you require a business license just to operate a business in the state.

And I am sure you will get your accounting services for free so you won't need to cut into profits for that...:rolleyes:

wrt Insurance, hard to determine what the cost might be. Kind of hard to compare it to what we pay for consulting type businesses.... One of my clients requires an exceptionally high professional liability coverage which more than doubled my premiums....and not as if the advice I am giving is life or death! :rolleyes: would be interesting to see how many insurers actually wanted to cover a market like this for independents, needs someone better than me to work out what premiums would be, would be dependent on what risks/liabilities you were going to cover i guess .

But go ahead, I will watch with interest......:popcorn: .
 

at_nyc

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Good. Then you will remember that, among other things, from that extra 40 % you also have to cover your employers share of Fica/medicaid (~ 8%). .
Yeah, big deal!

Then of course you also have to work out how many billable hours you are actually going to get, as opposed to whatever hours/show up you are getting as an employee.
How many mountains REQUIRE their instructors to "check in" every hour and be ready to teach, but won't paid them if there's insufficient demand? Should I rephrase your statement: "Of course you have to work out how many dollars you're actually going to get as opposed to whatever hours/show up you are getting as an employee"?

Of course depends on whether you can get people to book in advance or whether you are just going to hang about the mountain waiting to pick up last minute/spur of the moment pricing. (a slow tuesday in December??) ...and would you then charge more (congestion pricing?) or less for drop-ins.
Yes, the instructor makes that decision, not the mountain making that decision while requiring the instructor to show up and wait without pay.

Whoops, almost forgot, you will have to pay that service a percentage of your fees as well
As though the current mountain-owned ski school doesn't???

How can anyone forget your client paid hundreds for the lesson while the instructor got tens and twenties. How can ANYONE forget about that "FEE"???

And I am sure you will get your accounting services for free so you won't need to cut into profits for that...:rolleyes:
You're assuming none of the current employee-instructors never need to use accountants for their ever-so-simple low-as-peanut income? Can't deduct any of their skis anyway, who needs accountants?
 
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ScotsSkier

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Hmm, so 8% out of your 40 % "extra" is no big deal???? hmm, seems like 20% of the extra has gone straight away before anything els taken into account.... maybe you should pay a bit more for your accounting advice.... :) ...yet we have instructors here saying 10% tips make a huge difference to them....:rolleyes:

And to be brutally honest, - and address the elephant in the room everyone is tip toeing around - if instructors are willing and available to work at current rates why would the ski schools pay them more??? that pesky supply and demand thing again I guess,... :margarita:
 

fatbob

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And to be brutally honest, - and address the elephant in the room everyone is tip toeing around - if instructors are willing and available to work at current rates why would the ski schools pay them more??? that pesky supply and demand thing again I guess,... :margarita:

That's the real problem, too many people willing to do the job as a retirement gig, lifestyle choice or for the sheer love of it and unwilling or unable to unionise (whether because of political beliefs or fear of their employer or whatever). The inertia that keeps people there will also stop them risk taking on jumping to an Uber style platform.

I'm not sure I buy the arguments about it being a lot more hassle than being an employee, plenty of beauticians, hairdressers, massage therapists, mechanics, dent repairers, car valets, handymen etc seem to set up on a mobile freelance basis without being MBAs. But it is a risk as even if the Uberski is "legal enough" I would expect resort ski schools to blackball instructors participating.
 
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HDSkiing

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That's the real problem, too many people willing to do the job as a retirement gig, lifestyle choice or for the sheer love of it and unwilling or unable to unionise (whether because of political beliefs or fear of their employer or whatever). The inertia that keeps people there will also stop them risk taking on jumping to an Uber style platform

I’m mildly amused by this thread, I neither feel threatened by the Uber model nor do I feel that I’m mistreated or taken advantage of by the ski area I work for. I fall into the “retirement gig” category, as do a large number of my colleagues, pay is seldom an issue we discuss, most of us have income streams that allow us to ski “for a living.”

I’m not sure that an Uber type of ski instruction model could book me day in and day out with paying customers who tip well and return season after season. That’s the real model to being successful in this industry, get experience, certs and stay current and fit, give a nice lesson and help someone reach that next level. Over time you you will be busier, paid more and earn tips which often double or triple or quadruple your hourly or “unit” rate.

I get paid to ski, I get free passes for my family and friends, I clinic and get instruction to improve my skiing 3-5 hours a week, I get pro discounts and can deduct much of my equipment, travel and training costs including lodging at some very nice resorts:). Busy days $200 in tips is not uncommon, but you have to put the time in. Part time and new Instructors won’t see that. If your in between jobs without experience and certs or seniority your just not going to be worth much to the resort or the customer, but put the time in and you will be eventually, but at least in the meantime your skiing will be free and will improve dramatically and for many of us that’s enough:).
 

ScotsSkier

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I guess business is really booming - every resort and every time I try to book i get

  • Lesson Error: unfortunately we are sold out of private instructors at that time. Please choose another time slot, or email [email protected] to be notified if we have any instructors that become available.
Now whether this is due to legal actions in the works or just start-up lack of staff impossible to say. Also noted that there is no qualification on what level of instruction you are looking for, just ski or snowboard......

However, it is very probably the case that, if it does get off the ground, the majority of 'instructors" available will be people doing it on a very ad-hoc basis, probably at a few available times (weekends?) only and in many cases doing it as a "underground economy"/cash basis. Makes it kind of difficult to rely on having it available when you want it. A bit like Uber here in the Village where we have 2 drivers and one of them stops at 7.00 pm.....

And of course, applying for a USFS permit is not just an overnight activity....:rolleyes:
 

oldschoolskier

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This issue is the UBER style model ignores permits and regulations at the beginning. Let’s the front line take the risk for promise of big payouts. Fights later for a proper legal position via public opinion.

My feeling is a correctly set up model from the onset could benefit everyone, however my feeling is, the resorts could stand to loose so they’ll fight hard (and dirty) to keep it out, and the UBER’ski doesn’t care about playing fair until pushed by laws it is going to mess up the industry for a few years leaving bad blood on both sides.
 
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Bolder

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In France, the instructors own the local ski school and take home about 90 percent of the revenue they generate.
Really? I assumed it was the ski stations, which have different ownership models. but, this is more than I want to think about. makes my head hurt. Am going to Val Gardena next week and might take a Scuola di Sci lesson for field research...
 

Josh Matta

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well Carve still pays less.......no reason to jump ship.
 

fatbob

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Nope European ski schools are essentially co-ops though some seem to operate a bit like a pyramid scheme with younger harder grafting members paying their tribute to the old lags. Some tour operators even run their own schools.
 

Mendieta

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well Carve still pays less.......no reason to jump ship.

And for me, as a student, the PSIA cert means a lot. It does. It's like Taxis. I'll much rather take a Taxi than an Uber, because of all the regulations around taxi driving. What I do like is the tech around Uber. I do use Uber taxi. It would be nice to have an App to contact a PSIA instructor in the place I am visiting, etc.

EDIT: as a Mt Rose pass holder, I get 1 hour of private for like 40 bucks. It may be 50, but it's low enough that I don't remember. And that's a certified instructor. I do wonder why people don't take more lessons, especially at those costs. Of course, when you add tip and everything it's not like it's a freebie, but each lesson is gold.
 

dbostedo

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EDIT: as a Mt Rose pass holder, I get 1 hour of private for like 40 bucks. It may be 50, but it's low enough that I don't remember. And that's a certified instructor. I do wonder why people don't take more lessons, especially at those costs. Of course, when you add tip and everything it's not like it's a freebie, but each lesson is gold.

That sounds nice. Around here, private lessons are ~$100/hour. And then tip on top of that. I have been doing a couple a season. I think it's made for real improvement, but it's very expensive.

I did a Taos Ski week this year too - 12 hours of instruction for $220 in a 5 person group. Seems like a great deal. Group lessons here are about $52/hour. So the equivalent of a Taos Ski Week would be $624.
 

Monique

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I’d love to see this fly, but in reality the lift line may be to biggest hurdle.

I would find lessons a LOT less compelling if I had to deal with regular lift lines.

But you could also take lessons at less trafficked resorts.
 

Philpug

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Yeah I'll stick with teaching for a resort thanks. The liability factor alone makes that a no brainier.
This is why they are called "accidents", rarely does a skier get hurt or hurt someone else on purpose. <IF> and yet it is a big if, the instructor or the student gets hurt or hurts someone else during the lesson, where does the liability fall? Who's insurance covers it? I will add another <IF> here, If a resort allows these intructors work on the hill, I could see the resorts requiring the same level of insurance as they carry on their instructors, which is probably in the $1M/5M range, yes these policies are not relatively expensive, maybe a couple of thousand dollars...if no inverted manuvers are being done...but to put out a few thousand dollars with no guarentee that the client will even "donate" is a risky endevour.

I see Northstar is not on the list because it is on private land...but Heavenly is. Both are resorts are run by Vail. If a Northstar instructor was to go teach under this guise at Heavenly and Vail was notified...do you think that instructor would still have a job? I seriously doubt it. @Monique's point of not being able to cut lines will also be a factor for some if not many students on a weekends that could be a big thing for some students. I can see resorts not allowing that.

How does the instuctor get compensated? Does the student pay direct? Does "Carve" pay them? Do they get 1099'ed? If the instructor gets paid directly by the student, how does Carve make money? If Carve gets paid and then pays the student, what percentage does Carve make? If it is up to the student to donate a fair amount for the lesson, how can they guarantee $30/hour?
 

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